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Could Infant Formula Cause Autism?

Sun Nov 7, 2010 8:14 PM EST
health, attorney, autism, vaccination, gras, infant-formula, karen-desoto, poling, vaccine-court, federal-case, michael-pescatore
By KarenDeSoto
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In the last few years, there have been persistent allegations that vaccinations cause Autism, and 4,800 federal complaints have been filed. One of them contains a jaw-dropping allegation that a link exists between Autism and infant formula. The complaint argues that infant formula ingredients DHASCO and ARASCO may be a contributing cause of Autism.

One parent desperate for an explanation has dedicated the past three years to researching the cause of his son’s autism. Michael Pescatore, a father of four, has a warning for parents feeding their children infant formula. He believes that his research confirms his theory that DHASCO and AHASCO may cause an underlying mitochondrial dysfunction that could trigger Autism. Marketed by formula manufacturers as substances that allegedly benefit brain and vision development in infants, DHA and ARA are ingredients in almost all infant formulas.

Mr. Pescatore submitted to Federal Court an expert’s affidavit from a pediatrician and chemist that states, “Unfortunately, DHASCO and ARASCO, derived from modified algae, are “not” identical to DHA and ARA in human breast milk, and available medical literature demonstrates that they are neither digested nor utilized in the same fashion as DHA and ARA of human origin. As DHA and ARA are incorporated extensively in the rapidly developing brains of infants, it is essential that non-human sources of DHA and ARA be proven to be not just “biosimiliar”, but “bioidentical” to human DHA and ARA. Since SCO-derived DHA and ARA have *not* been shown to be bioidentical, and in fact have been shown to be digested, oxidized, and function differently than human-derived DHA and ARA, they should *not* be allowed in infant formulas unless additional studies can be performed to verify their safety.”

Mr. Pescatore’s theory and The Doctor’s analysis seem to be supported by the Institute of Medicine report on evaluating new ingredients to infant formula by stating that hundreds of parents have submitted complaints of digestive issues from these formulas. In many cases, these digestive issues were resolved after switching to non DHASCO/ARASCO formulas. The IOM has stated that infants would have to be monitored years after formula feeding to ensure an absence of unknown biological triggering effects on cellular pathways possibly associated with brain and eye development. DHASCO/ARASCO formulas have not been unanimously proven to provide any benefit. Mr. Pescatore stated that the triggering effect can be in the form of a fever of unknown origin or inflammatory response such as a reaction to vaccination.

In the first Vaccine-Autism case in which a money damages were awarded, an estimated 20 million dollars over the lifetime of the child, Hannah Poling, seemed at first to confirm the link. But the government stated that the vaccines merely aggravated an unknown mitochondrial disorder that Hannah Poling had, and didn’t actually cause her Autism. Nevertheless, it is unknown how many children have this rare mitochondrial disorder that may cause autism when vaccinated.

It is interesting to note that the father of Hannah Poling is a Neurologist. Dr. Jon Poling has researched and published several publications about DHA. The coincidence is uncanny: the only family to recover an award from Vaccine-Autism court is a research scientist who has researched and studied DHA. Additionally, Dr. Poling has published at least two research articles with former National Institute of Health Researcher, Dr. Norman Salem, Jr. Dr. Salem, a prominent expert on the science of DHA, is currently the Chief Scientific Officer for Martek Biosciences Corporation, the leading distributor of DHA. Perhaps the most curious part of the award to the Poling family is the fact that the case was “sealed”. If it is recognized that Autism is a serious public safety concern, why then would the Government seal the only case that had an actual recovery of damages? Does that case hold answers to the causation questions that parents of Autistic children have wondered and agonized over for years?

One of the facts that Mr. Pescatore emphasized was the dramatic rise in the rate of autism among children: from 1 in 10,000 in the early 1980’s to the current statistic of 1 in 150. He was convinced that this statistic alone was too large to ignore and that an environmental cause had to be the culprit. Without going into the exact science of Pescatore’s theory, it can be simply explained that the DHA and ARA may cause a mitochondrial dysfunction in children when uncontrollable oxidation occurs. This reaction is called oxidative stress. Mr. Pescatore’s son exhibited severe digestive problems, Pescatore believes that the digestive problems were a sign that oxidation was taking place due to his son’s inability to absorb or breakdown the vegetable based fatty acids present in the formula. Pescatore explains that males may be less likely to tolerate oxidative stress because unlike females they lack the natural defenses that protect them from oxidation, which may explain why the rate of Autism among males is four times higher than females.

It would not be the first time that an unintended harm of an initially perceived health benefit was discovered. For example, in the Pediatrician’s affidavit, the Doctor illustrates the complicated chemical structure as applied to human physiology by stating, “The human body is exquisitely sensitive to the structure of chemicals, both in regards to digestion as well as function. A well-know example is the use of modified vegetable oils in margarine to replace butter. When margarine was first introduced, it was heralded to be a “healthy alternative” to butter, since it was higher in polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA’s), while butter had more saturated fat. However, the original PUFA’s used in margarine were rich in “trans-fats”, which are not digested or metabolized as naturally-occurring “cist-fats”, and adversely affect triglyceride and cholesterol levels and ratios. By the time they were determined to be unhealthy, trans fats had been widely used, and became an important factor in the development of atherosclerotic plaque and related vascular diseases. Trans-fats should not have been given GRAS status, but they were. Interestingly, DHASCO and ARASCO have *also* been shown to adversely affect cholesterol levels, producing an undesirable alteration in HDL and LDL ratios”.

Mr. Pescatore has contacted the FDA over a dozen times in reference to his research on DHA and ARA as a cause of Autism, and he has compiled a vast report of research that corroborates his theory that DHASCO and ARASCO is a possible contributing factor of Autism. His research supports his theory that DHASCO and ARAASCO in infant formula may cause excessive oxidation that may result in mitochondrial abnormalities directly implicated with the vaccine-Autism connection. The FDA responded to Pescatore by stating that the “FDA is aware of many theories concerning the possible causes for Autism, but it is our understanding that, to this date, there is no clear evidence as to exactly what causes this condition. Research into which factors may cause Autism is still ongoing. We are not aware of any research indicating that the use of ARASCO and/or DHASCO is a causative factor in this condition”.

The conclusion by Mr. Pescatore’s expert is simply stated, “ …in my professional opinion as a chemist and pediatric intensive physician, the GRAS status of DHASCO and ARASCO should be lifted and not reinstated until independent studies have proven that they do not interfere with normal infant digestion and brain development”. (GRAS stands for “Generally Recognized as Safe”).

Could the DHA/ARA in infant formula be one of the unknown environmental factors causing the increase in Autism cases among our children? This information creates only more questions in the Vaccine–Autism debate. Why was the Poling case sealed? If there is even a single question about the safety of DHA and ARA then why is it still being added to infant formula, especially if it has no health benefits? Shouldn’t the FDA suspend this ingredient until further studies can rule out the Pescatore theory of oxidation and mitochondrial dysfunction?

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Mark Pescatore

I cannot believe I am the first to comment on this topic. I have seen first hand the dedication on my brothers part to make this information available for the world to see. My hats off to you Mike!! Keep on trucking.....All my love to you , Lisa , Joey , Michael , Amanda and Abby...always

    Reply#1 - Mon Nov 8, 2010 10:44 PM EST
    MGinRochester

    It's worth exploring, but let's not start another vaccine-like public panic until the data are clearly in and we have a scientific consensus.

    In my view, this concern should be taken to the scientific community. However, let's not do an end-run around the scientific process by going to the media before the science has been done. As we have seen with the vaccine controversy, once a bad idea hits the general public it can be nearly impossible to convince worried parents that it was a dead-end.

    • 4 votes
    #1.1 - Tue Mar 8, 2011 12:42 PM EST
    penguin15

    It's kind of funny that Mr. Pescatore's attorney writes the article, the first comment is from his brother...all while Mr. Pescatore actually admits he conducted no studies. It's nice to theorize that this could be the cause of autism, but after his first two lawsuits were dismissed for lack of evidence to support this claim, perhaps we should re-examine the "data" that was presented in the article above. His "expert" was actually not an expert according to the court's decision, as he could not speak to the cause. None of this data actually shows that autism results from these chemicals, which to me is the huge leap of faith that Mr. Pescatore has taken. It's one thing to say changes in the brain occur; quite another to assume that these changes cause autism.

    Let's also not forget that Mr. Pescatore has twice sued the formula company he believes is responsible, so money seems to be a big motivator for this article, which seems to be trying the case in the court of public opinion, rather than via the scientific community. Mr. Pescatore has for years been spreading this same unsupported theory without evidence across discussion boards all over the Internet...it is a sad day when hype like this outshines actual research that is showing promise and backed up by data, especially in the realm of genetic research.

    Two court cases, both dismissed for lack of evidence, with a warning that if he tries another frivolous lawsuit with no evidence he will be barred from filing another. Seems that his opinion is just that...no data, no facts, no opinions based on the court's judgments. He'll just keep spreading this rumor trying for it to gain traction...too bad the research just doesn't show him to be correct on this one. Autism is a tough diagnosis to handle...but to blame formula companies with no evidence does no one any good.

    • 3 votes
    #1.2 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:17 AM EST
    Physicist-retired

    So far, the scientific data doesn't seem to support the conclusion that infant formula can be at the root of this.

    From the International Breastfeeding Journal:

    Breastfeeding, infant formula supplementation, and Autistic Disorder: the results of a parent survey

    The results of this preliminary study indicate that children who were not breastfed or were fed infant formula without docosahexaenoic acid/arachidonic acid supplementation were significantly more likely to have autistic disorder.

    I'm seeing a much stronger link between the use of antidepressants by the mother (1st trimester, 3rd trimester, and while breastfeeding) than anything involved in infant formula. From ScienceDaily:

    After adjusting for maternal and birth factors, mothers of children with ASD were twice as likely to have at least one antidepressant prescription in the year prior to delivery.

    When compared with women with no antidepressant prescription during the study period, those with a prescription for a SSRI were more than twice as likely to have a child later diagnosed with ASD.

    Much, much more research out there on this. Interestingly enough, the ratios of male/female ASD exhibited in mouse studies involving SSRI antidepressants were identical (4 to 1) to the ratio seen in humans.

    The time correlation between the growth in use of antidepressants and the surge in ASD is also remarkable.

    • 4 votes
    #1.3 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:57 PM EST
    MarkD-555

    Autistic children have minor distinct facial features they are born with - before they even develop autism. It has a genetic factor at the very least, all countries of the world have it, and it's more prevalent in boys because of the lesser amount of "backup" genetic information in the XY chromosome. The 4:1 ratio of boys vs girls autism makes that obvious. Exactly the same chance of both segments of the XX chromosome carrying the same risk factor.

    Autism only shows itself around the age of 3; just because that is when it manifests does not mean that the genetic factors were not already there.

    It's not vaccines, it's not baby formula, it's not evil spirits. These children are born with the genetic factors already in place. If anything adds to the risk factors or that activates a gene it would be something before birth.

    Much, much more research out there on this. Interestingly enough, the ratios of male/female ASD exhibited in mouse studies involving SSRI antidepressants were identical (4 to 1) to the ratio seen in humans.

    Taking a brain chemical affecting drug while pregnant and while a tiny brain is growing is patently stupid. I would be more surprised if it did not have some detrimental effect.

    • 3 votes
    #1.4 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:22 PM EST
    Physicist-retired

    Mark,

    These children are born with the genetic factors already in place.

    I've also recently seen this - again from ScienceDaily:

    In a small, preliminary study that included 13 male children, those with autism had an average 67 percent more prefrontal brain neurons and larger than average brain weight, than children without autism, according to a study in the November 9 issue of JAMA.

    "To our knowledge, this study is the first direct quantitative test and confirmation of the theory that a pathological overabundance of neurons in critical brain regions is present at a young age in autism.

    Because cortical neurons are generated in prenatal, not postnatal life, pathological overabundance of neurons indicates early developmental disturbances in molecular and genetic mechanisms that govern proliferation, cell cycle regulation, and apoptosis.

    Therefore, the finding has significance for understanding the etiological and neural development and functional origins of autism."

    Which definitely goes to your point.

    • 3 votes
    #1.5 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:32 PM EST
    ohiogal-479871

    . The 4:1 ratio of boys vs girls autism makes that obvious. Exactly the same chance of both segments of the XX chromosome carrying the same risk factor

    And to add, autism incidence increases within families compared to general population and has been linked to maternal alcholism.

    Taking a brain chemical affecting drug while pregnant and while a tiny brain is growing is patently stupid.

    Be fair. Antidepressants usually aren't started aftersomeone knows they are pregnant. Commonly women are on the medication and then become pregnant. Unfortunately the pregnancy is not realized until during embryological development.

    Once found to be pregnant, weaning of the medication is attempted. Sometimes that weaning fails and women are more dangerous to themselves and the fetus that they have to be kept on medications or admitted for stabilization.

    • 2 votes
    #1.6 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:12 PM EST
    MarkD-555

    Be fair. Antidepressants usually aren't started aftersomeone knows they are pregnant. Commonly women are on the medication and then become pregnant. Unfortunately the pregnancy is not realized until during embryological development.

    Agreed. I was only attempting to address any doctor or pharmacist that does not warn a patient about the potential danger.

    • 1 vote
    #1.7 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:30 PM EST
    ohiogal-479871

    Agreed.

    Your statement came off a little harsh. I see now what you mean. If anything I have seen more examples of people not prescribing needed medication during pregnancy, than people go the opposite way and prescribe a completely new medication.

    I was only attempting to address any doctor or pharmacist that does not warn a patient about the potential danger

    I believe that's called malpractice. One would hope that health care professional would do the basics of their job.

      #1.8 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:36 PM EST
      Maggie-602935

      A debate near to me...my child was not born with Autism...I was there...I watched it happen to him.

        #1.9 - Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:52 PM EST
        Reply
        Mark Pescatore

        Karen, thank you so much for all your hard work !! May good things come to you and your loved ones! Thank you so much!

          Reply#2 - Mon Nov 8, 2010 10:50 PM EST
          Mike Pescatore

          I want parents to realize what has taken four years for me to discover. DHA/ARA infant formulas have unknown triggering effects on cellular pathways(brain and eye development). This is not an opinion, rather a fact. The Institute Of Medicine had warned manufacturers in 2004 of this. I guess it has become acceptable to experiment with infant brain and eye development. Not with my children. Let me hear some feedback. I will give you the facts and let you decide.

            Reply#3 - Mon Nov 8, 2010 10:51 PM EST
            Pamela Drew

            I agree with you, too many unknown effects are tied to many forms of food untested additives that Congress seems comfortable exposing the public health to risk for the sake of corporate income. For infant formula that includes genetically engineered, RoundupReady soy used in infant formula since 1997.

            I'm a huge critic of the FDA and agribusiness %$#@ for food, but as much as I loathe the toxic policies and would love to find blame, especially gmo soy, from personal experience, don't see it.

            My introduction to autism was with the child of a friend who was born in 1990 and was not only breast fed exclusively but born to a mom with no Rx use, no recreational substances but for an annual New Years champagne and fairly pure organic diet, which for me takes a food trigger out of the running.

            Like other children with autism who have come to be part of families I know, symptoms manifested in time frames that were far more suggestive of vaccine triggers and while the anecdotal evidence doesn't match with what is reported from studies it's hard to trust anything more than your own eyes.

              #3.1 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:16 PM EST
              Mike Pescatore

              I never said DHA/ARA infant formula were causative for every case of autism. I suggest that the structurally altered triacylglycerols are more vulnerable to oxidation and may exert different adverse effects on cellular pathways. Oxidative stress and related damage to DNA and proteins have been found among autistic individuals. Why is the concept of feeding butchered fatty acids that are more vulnerable to oxidation to an infant during critical stages of development a concern that is dismissed?

              A group of experts at the Institute of Medicine warned that because these fatty acids are so different from natural sources, they may exert unknown biological triggering effects on cellular pathways. The pathways involved with brain and eye development. You would think that parents would be outraged to learn that their child was part of an experiment with their child's brain and eye development.

              These fatty acids have the potential to cause mitochondrial abnormalities, oxidative damage, and suppression of immune responses. They are made from fermented algae and fungus and extracted with hexane. Then they add carrageenan to keep the formula from seperating despite it having a citizen's petition filed against it at the FDA for causing intestinal cell damage. Oh yeah, carrageenan may degrade to poligeenan and become carcinogenic. But I'm the one who is being ridiculous.

                #3.2 - Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:15 AM EST
                Pamela Drew

                Mike Pescatore...But I'm the one who is being ridiculous.

                Absolutely not, you've got some phenomenal items that are great cause for concern and in general the complexities of human bodies create countless opportunities for subtle changes and interactions to pose long term effects that are virtually impossible to pinpoint. It may be that autism like cancer has a spectrum of causes and manifest effects and it's not a contest to find one right answer, but to try to work together to do away with all the policies that treat people as lab rats for profiteering!

                  #3.3 - Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:34 PM EST
                  Mike Pescatore

                  Spot on Pamela. I don't understand why some people are so quick to trash other's hard work in looking for answers. You know, it's a win win for people like Penguin and whatever. If I am wrong, infant formulas are safe. If I am right, maybe I can do something about it to keep other infants from harm. That's not good enough. Both of these individuals would rather debate everything I say without listening to what I present. What can you do? I appreciate your kind words. If people would work together, rather than trying to prove how wrong others are, maybe some headway could be made in finding real answers.

                    #3.4 - Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:32 PM EST
                    penguin15

                    Mike & Pamela, you're jumping the gun. There is no evidence to support that chemicals turn someone autistic. You may have a point that the cumulative effect of all of these "generally regarded as safe" chemicals is doing something, but to jump the gun and say they're responsible for autism (as Mike's multiple lawsuits have alleged) is disingenuous at best. Until there's research that shows a mechanism of action for any of these chemicals leading to autism, it's pure speculation. You both may be skeptical of the medical and gov't fields, but that doesn't mean that everything they say is to be treated with a grain of salt.

                    Mike has a child with autism. Autism has been shown to be linked to genetics in multiple ways, either via increased age of the parents (as Mike was when his autistic child was conceived) or via DNA anomalies associated with neurological development. So far, about 20% of autism has been directly linked to these genetic anomalies, and the percentage grows each week as more genetic factors are found. Surely autism may have various triggers, but it appears more and more likely that you must have the genetic factors in place from birth in order for these triggers to have any effect. Mike refuses to accept the fact that his genes may have been at least partially responsible for his son's condition, and he refuses to accept that having a child at an advanced age may have played a part. The older you get, the more susceptible your gamete DNA is to be prone to mutations and errors. Older parents are associated with Down syndrome and a bunch of different disorders. While not exclusively due to older parental DNA, it explains a lot, in that when you have anomalies in DNA, especially in the genes associated with brain development, developmental disorders can arise. This is not a "all autistic children have older parents" idea, it's a "susceptible DNA breeds autism" idea...it just so happens that the older you get, the more susceptible your DNA is to changes and errors.

                    It's funny (ironic even) that Mike says "if people would work together" to find a cause...funny because all Mike wants to do is talk about ONE potential cause or trigger, and anything anybody else says that runs counter to him is dismissed quickly and angrily. He has claimed that his son's condition was exclusively caused by infant formula...a charge not supported by fact, and one that has been rejected multiple times by courts of law, and a supposition that has been rejected over a dozen times by the FDA, all for lack of evidence. If he truly wanted to find a cause (rather than just pin blame on something), he would examine ALL potential causes of autism, not just infant formula or chemicals in general.

                    It's hilarious to me (and quite arrogant of him) that he claims to have found the cause of his son's autism outright (without any experiments of his own, only by Googling), when thousands scientists have worked their tails off for decades to try to find a cause. He claims to be a researcher, but is clearly just a bitter parent who thinks of his disabled child as "diseased" and wants a payout from a company he perceives as evil. Sad and pathetic.

                    • 3 votes
                    #3.5 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:52 PM EST
                    Reply
                    penguin15

                    While I agree that there might be triggers, I don't think this could be the root cause. First off, it wouldn't explain why boys are 4 times as likely to be autistic than girls. Secondly, it doesn't explain why autism spectrum disorders run in families.

                    You seem to fail to realize that the definition of autism has changed drastically over the past 20 years. It used to be that you had to be like Rain Man to be classified as autistic. Now, it's a spectrum disorder, in which you only have to have two symptoms to be classified as autistic. This is similar to the ADHD rise in the 1990s. A study recently found that kids classified in the 1990s and 2000s as autistic are no longer this way, suggesting that maybe they were developmentally delayed in childhood, but were not truly on the spectrum.

                    The intense awareness that now accompanies ASD in both parents and doctors, as well as the diagnostic definition changes, could account for much of the supposed increase. Yet you focus on one aspect of infant development. There are many autistic children who never had an ounce of infant formula, or whose parents never saw these chemicals. Yes, there are many new age things that have increased as autism diagnoses have increased, which means that while they might be correlated, it doesn't mean they're causative.

                    You're doing some good research, but the fact that the FDA has shot you down over a dozen times points to something -- namely that there is no real causation occurring here. Instead of focusing on this one aspect of autism which seems to have enveloped you over the past four or so years, maybe it's time to investigate something else. You may have seen something with your son, but that doesn't mean that autism is caused in this fashion each time. To continue to push this theory and not explore other options is not objective research.

                    While this is not meant as an attack, it is meant to provoke thought. Namely that with all the genetic research confirming that genetic anomalies are more prevalent in autistic children than with "normal" children, maybe it's time to renew your focal point.

                    • 3 votes
                    Reply#4 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 1:19 PM EST
                    Pamela Drew

                    While I agree that there might be triggers, I don't think this could be the root cause. First off, it wouldn't explain why boys are 4 times as likely to be autistic than girls. Secondly, it doesn't explain why autism spectrum disorders run in families.

                    Actually basic genetics would explain gender differences in reacting, exactly as it does with cancers and other diseases as well as the disorders running in families where genetic predisposition is as close as the DNA that they share as part of one family!!

                    The intense awareness that now accompanies ASD in both parents and doctors, as well as the diagnostic definition changes, could account for much of the supposed increase.

                    That's more of a social function that helps to put everyone on medication and the numbers of affected children is now more than 1/100 and like food allergies it only takes eyes to see its epidemic.

                    You're doing some good research, but the fact that the FDA has shot you down over a dozen times points to something -

                    The FDA has been so dominated by industry that's the last place to look for scientific evidence to blame corporate products or confirm corporate liability, what the FDA allows tells us Wall Street owns em.

                    In 2007 FDA released a Confidential Report called Agency and Mission at Risk, it's in pdf form and well worth the read since the problems are worse and reporting less available. A link is in comment 1 or in my column recommendations; I'd paste a link but it asks me to download when I click! :~)

                    • 1 vote
                    #4.1 - Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:52 PM EST
                    penguin15

                    Actually basic genetics would explain gender differences in reacting, exactly as it does with cancers and other diseases as well as the disorders running in families where genetic predisposition is as close as the DNA that they share as part of one family!!

                    Pamela, this is exactly my point. If a genetic predisposition/prerequisite/anomaly is on the X or Y chromosome, a boy only has one of these chromosomes versus a girl's two X's. This leaves boys particularly vulnerable to mutations/errors, because they don't have a back-up sex chromosome to counter whatever errors there are on the first copy. Simple genetics would definitely explain this, as in the following:

                    A male (XY) and a female carrier (Xx, in which the "x" is the erroneous copy) would have four potential outcomes for children: XX -- normal girl, XY -- normal boy, Xx -- carrier girl, xY -- autistic boy. If neither parent is a carrier, and the cause of the autism is a mutation in the DNA, it is much harder to create an autistic girl than boy, because you have to have mutations in both X chromosomes, rather than just one in a boy. This is a potential source of explanation for Mike's child -- it appears that neither parent was a carrier, but they were both older parents, and would be more susceptible to have their gamete DNA be altered. Being a boy, his son would have had no backup copy to take over, and hence he was autistic. It's a VERY simplified explanation, but it explains why families with no history of autism can all-the-sudden have it occur.

                    That's more of a social function that helps to put everyone on medication and the numbers of affected children is now more than 1/100 and like food allergies it only takes eyes to see its epidemic.

                    There's no medication for autism, sorry. Latest numbers are 1 in 110, not more than 1 in 100. My wife's brother is autistic, so I have definitely seen it with my own eyes. But...what I do see is many children who are just developmentally delayed be diagnosed as autistic, ADHD, whatever the diagnosis du jour is, to get assistance in school. Not saying it happens everywhere, but it does happen. So not everyone diagnosed is actually autistic. It is sad when a parent says his or her child is autistic when clearly not, especially when compared with Mike's child and my brother-in-law. Also, and most importantly, the definition of autism used to be so narrowly focused, and now 97% of all ASD cases are PDD-NOS, which was just identified in the latest DSM version in 1994. So no wonder the increase -- most of the cases wouldn't have been diagnosed prior to 1994 because they didn't meet the specifications at the time!

                    The FDA has been so dominated by industry that's the last place to look for scientific evidence to blame corporate products or confirm corporate liability, what the FDA allows tells us Wall Street owns em.

                    Not sure what you want here -- experts in the field aren't just born, they have to work in the industry first. Also, Wall St. owns them? Stop the conspiracy theories. No one is lobbying the FDA for anything. Approval is based on a scientific review of data, not back-room deals in the halls of Congress.

                    It's true that the FDA has funding issues, and cannot regulate everything coming into this country (especially supplements). But that doesn't mean that they're acting in concert with companies to pass dangerous substances into the public sector.

                    • 3 votes
                    #4.2 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:08 PM EST
                    Reply
                    Mike Pescatore

                    Penguin, think about this.It is unacceptable to experiment with infant development. The FDA had the Institute of Medicine conduct a comprehensive evaluation of the new bioactive components of infant formulas in 2004. They had stated quite clearly that the LCPUFAs (DHASCO/ARASCO) were structurally different than naturally sources found in human breast milk. They warned that "unknown triggering effects on cellular pathways" may result after digestion. They further warned that these biological effects maybe subtle and need to be monitored years after formula feeding ended, possibly up to the age of puberty. They emphasized that level 2 and 3 assessments and adequately powered studies were not available to detect beneficial or detrimental effects of these oils. These warnings came two years after these formulas were in the marketplace.

                    There is no doubt that altering triacylglycerol fatty acid positioning by interesterification will alter digestion and metabolism of fatty acids. These positioning differences as well as fatty acid species attached among the glycerol backbone dictate many things such as melting point,mouth feel and etc. We know now that triacylglycerols found in vegetable oils have palmitic acid located in the outer positions of the TAG. This positioning may result in insoluble calcium and magnesium soap formation leading to malabsorption issues and constipation. These TAGs are used in most infant formulas today. They know some children will have digestive issues, but utilize them anyway. It very easy to associate these problems with lactose intolerance.

                    When you realize that palmitic acid is essential for protein acylation and deacylation, it becomes easy to understand why palmitic acid is found in the middle position in human breast milk. The feature is reversible and allows for signaling proteins to be switched on and off. Alter the position and availability of this acid and you may end up in alterations of protein signaling.

                      Reply#5 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 2:13 PM EST
                      Robert-1126350

                      Mike,

                      Have you looked at VERY-LONG-CHAIN ACYL CoA DEHYDROGENASE DEFICIENCY (VLCAD) kids?

                      Have any autistic studies been done on them retropectively?

                      Specifically, has vaccine induced febrile fasting, that could make these metabolically challenged kids vulnerable, been looked at?

                        #5.1 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 3:24 PM EST
                        penguin15

                        While I agree with you that some chemicals may be structurally altered in formula, etc. and may not be digested the same way, I don't see the causation here. What I think we're seeing here is an additional symptom, and not a causative agent.

                        To humor me, just consider that the child was autistic before formula was introduced. His brain is not correctly functioning, and could have many different issues going on. The aiding of digestion could simply be affected by the autism (and not causative). The digestive issues could be a function of the autism (which would at least give a little credence to Wakefield's initial idea). It isn't hard to consider that the same neurological issues that create echolalia, a lack of eye contact, and repetitive patterns associated with autism could also create some somatic issues as well. The brain could alter the digestion mechanism, and you'd see this as well. It doesn't mean, necessarily, that the digestion of food influenced the autism. Actually, it would be vice versa.

                        These are the kinds of things we need to think about when throwing around the correlation data. It could be correlated, but it could be completely the opposite of the initial belief. Liek I said, none of this is concrete, but it doesn't mean that you simply discard the notion that genetics is potentially at play.

                        • 2 votes
                        #5.2 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 6:52 PM EST
                        Reply
                        Mike Pescatore

                        Robert, Today I was just looking at the strong feedback control on natural LCPUFA synthesis by exogenous LCPUFA supplementation. This is mediated by reduced FADS2 transcription secondary to the reduction of the active form of SREBP-1c. This mode of regulation implies that excess dietary LCPUFAs from either the N-3 or N-6 series may shut off natural synthesis of both LCPUFA series. This not only emphasizes the importance of a proper balance of these fatty acids but also questioned what levels are excessive. I have read numerous publications that implicate lipid metabolism dysregulation as contributing factors for autism. I believe that I have read a few on VLCAD and autism. I will try and dig them up. If dietary DHA/ARA can alter natural synthesis and regulation, should there be concern? We may in fact be replacing natural DHA/ARA with structurally different DHASCO/ARASCO. I haven't posted what I believe triggering effects may result from these alterations of DHASCO/ARASCO triacyglycerols. I'm sure you can see where I am going with this.

                          Reply#6 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 4:41 PM EST
                          penguin15

                          Mike -- Robert's not a scientist...he's just repeating things he hears, much as some autistic children do (notice how the scientific "speak" is in all caps...cut and paste). He would have no idea where you're going with this. My question is why this would affect some children but not others...that's where the real root cause is, versus just seeing an effect from this chemical.

                          • 1 vote
                          #6.1 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 6:40 PM EST
                          Reply
                          Mark Pescatore

                          Penquin, don't be hatin...Someday someone may write an article about you and your research..Until then , keep your chin up and head to the grindstone! Best wishes to you my short feathered friend!

                            #7 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 5:41 PM EST
                            penguin15

                            Honestly, I'm not hatin'. I'm just saying that there are reasons that some kids are affected by chemicals whereas most others are not. It starts in the genes. I'm not saying it's completely there. But there is too much evidence that genetics are at play to ignore it as a potential cause.

                            My brother-in-law is a grown autistic adult. By no means will my in-laws blame anything other than genetics (and possibly some bad luck), however. I sincerely hope that when my wife and I have kids that this trait didn't get passed down from her parents, but I do believe that our kids will have a greater risk of being autistic due to genetic lineage. Whether it's a complex set of genes present in their chromosomes (thus accounting for variations in expression such as Asperger's or in my B-I-L's case true autism) or the result of DNA additions, deletions, and repetitions, I think deep down the root cause is genetic.

                            I just cannot see how this disorder can be present in 4 times as many boys as girls, run in families, and be present in all aspects of society, be they vaccinated or unvaccinated, rich or poor, black or white, etc. without having some genetic component.

                            That being said, I think a lot of the "increase" is related to a broader definition of autism in the latest versions of the DSM, as well as a greater autism awareness by the public, parents, and medical community. While you currently have to meet at least two of the autistic symptoms to be classified as on the ASD spectrum, the DSM is considering decreasing that to one symptom, which will surely (again) create panic over another supposed "increase". Will this mean something in the environment is creating more autistic children? No. It means that we artificially increased the number of kids via an ever-changing diagnostic definition. There's a reason the number has stayed right around 1 in 100 or so for the last 10 years: the definition hasn't changed.

                            I do feel for families afflicted with autism. As I stated, my wife's family is one of them, and my family could be during this next generation, if the theories of genetic linkages are true. By no means am I contradicting or belittling your brother's (?) research, but what I am doing is giving a potential reason that his research isn't solid. Namely, that genetics could be the reason behind the kids' digestive issues, autism, etc. Surely the environmental toxins, allergens, etc. could play a triggering role, but as I stated before, without the genetic factors, those chemicals do not cause autism. Only in the presence of the proper genetic combinations does this potentially work. Which would mean that the genetics, not the DHA or other chemicals, would be the root cause.

                            I'm not asking you to believe me on the spot. But to claim that what I say is nonsensical because Mike's research has found a POTENTIAL area for further research is foolish. More research needs to be done, but in my career I've always been taught to ask the 5 Why's. In your brother's theory, it would go something like this:

                            Why does child A exhibit autism? Because he was given DHA, which affected his nervous system.

                            Why did it affect his nervous system? Because his genes created a malfunction.

                            And so on...

                            But your brother's theory stops after question 1. The question of why this chemical could affect the nervous system isn't asked. What I'm asking is that you delve down this path further. Yes, the chemical could affect a child, but potentially only if his nervous system isn't fully formed from his genetics or a birth defect or from some other stunting event.

                            What I think Mike has found is a trigger, not the cause. Likely more than 99% of those children exposed to DHA, etc. turn out perfectly normal. The job then is to find out why it affects some children but not others. Only then will we find the CAUSE, not the EFFECT.

                            • 1 vote
                            #7.1 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 6:38 PM EST
                            Robert-1126350

                            More research needs to be done, but in my career I've always been taught to ask the 5 Why's. In your brother's theory, it would go something like this:

                            Why does child A exhibit autism? Because he was given DHA, which affected his nervous system.

                            Why did it affect his nervous system? Because his genes created a malfunction.

                            And so on...

                            Uh, that's only "2 whys".

                              #7.2 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 9:00 PM EST
                              Robert-1126350

                              "4 tips to become a professional fighter" by Jiffy Jeff

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9q87i2xDzQ

                              similar to Penguin's "5 why's"

                              • 1 vote
                              #7.3 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 9:04 PM EST
                              Robert-1126350

                              4 FREE tips start at 6:18

                              • 1 vote
                              #7.4 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 9:10 PM EST
                              penguin15

                              Uh, that's only "2 whys".

                              That's my point, Robert. Digging only at the surface (via 1 or 2 whys) does not get at the real cause of the issue. You just proved my point -- thanks! It's obvious you don't understand the concept of "root cause".

                              • 2 votes
                              #7.5 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:29 PM EST
                              MISSION INVISIBLE

                              As odd as it sounds I agree with both of you. Genetics play a part just like the environment plays a part. We can change how our genes are expressed, and they are discovering that more and more daily.

                              I have a genetic disorder, I also have a few high functioning autistic characteristics I've developed over the last year or so after some flu and MMR vaccines I had fall. I think toxins have a huge effect on how our genes are expressed. Here is a link to a website that has some info about epigenetics on it, it also has my theory as to why autism has become so prevalent. Link Here. After visiting that and watching the video on how the environment can alter our gene expression, click on the toxins and disease, there is a huge section on autism.

                                #7.6 - Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:44 PM EST
                                MISSION INVISIBLE

                                and Im not trying to promote my site by posting it, I have been screaming to the world for the last couple of months about how our environment and technology is killing us, and I want to educate others....so I put all my information on a website and let others make the decision themselves.

                                  #7.7 - Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:45 PM EST
                                  Robert-1126350

                                  He's just rehashing the age old nature vs. nurture debate. Only he's committing a fallacy by positioning anyone's argument against him by creating a strawman that they deny genetics plays a part.

                                  Not much you can do about genetics. Epigenetics can be influenced.
                                  Environmental factors can influence up to 4 generations with only the 1st generation being exposed.

                                    #7.8 - Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:03 PM EST
                                    MISSION INVISIBLE

                                    thats interesting, I'd like to see information about the generations and what genes are expressed. I have no family history of Ehlers-danlos syndrome, the connective tissue disorder I have. There are 9 types of it and they haven't identified the gene for my type. I have no documented family history.

                                    I have no single doubt in my mind that my genes have been altered from some toxins and radiation I've had in the last year or so. I think autism has a slight genetic component and then the rest is determined by the environment and diet.

                                    Do they get the toxins out of the body after vaccines in enough time to not cause damage by eating antioxidants? Do the toxins cause more damage if the child had a poor diet or was exposed to EMF's immediately after toxic exposure/vaccines? There are so many components to it. I still think it all comes back to one basic principle and that is the toxic exposure and free radicals created and the heightened sensitivity to EMF's because the body is not at homestasis anymore...in order to be at homeostasis they have to reduce to free radicals, that way they don't interact with the external EMF's...

                                      #7.9 - Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:17 PM EST
                                      penguin15

                                      While I agree that these things need to be explored to remove doubt, the fact is that NOTHING from the environment has been linked to autism. That's not to say that nothing is, in fact, but that no correlation, much less causation, has been found for environmental factors. Everyone initially linked it to vaccines, but more and more research shows that autism develops earlier than shots, and new research is showing that it develops in the womb. Could it be mother's diet, environment, etc.? Sure, but why one child and not the other? Why boys 4 times more than girls? That last point alone should trigger something in your head as to genetic rationale. If it were environmental, wouldn't we expect a near-even mix -- 4:1 ratio is quite large to suggest environmental causes.

                                      I'm not suggesting that genetics alone plays the part, though. Could it be that something (whether environmental trigger or internal trigger like with puberty) causes us to express mutated genes to present as autism? Surely. But the root cause is still genetic. That's not to say other things don't play a part, but without the genetic aspect, no autism results. That is what root cause is: remove it and you don't have the condition. Triggers, fine. But cause? Genetic.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #7.10 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:28 AM EST
                                      Robert-1126350

                                      What is the root cause of a chicken, Mr. Penquin? An egg? What is the root cause of the egg? You've added nothing enlightening to the topic.

                                        #7.11 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:39 AM EST
                                        Robert-1126350

                                        It's obvious that you don't understand the implications of epigenetic science or even know what it is. You're stuck in the 1950's version of science.

                                          #7.12 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:45 AM EST
                                          ohiogal-479871

                                          Why does child A exhibit autism? Because he was given DHA, which affected his nervous system.

                                          Just out of curiosity, where is the explanation of autistic children who were never given formula? Especially in developing nations? Take Nigeria for example, where it is culturally unheard of to use formula. Autism rates are still as prevalent as in developed nations who do use formula. Why is that?

                                          • 3 votes
                                          #7.13 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:28 PM EST
                                          Mike Pescatore

                                          All autistic individuals didn't become autistic for the same reasons.

                                          Would a child with peanut allergies react differently than one without if fed peanuts?

                                            #7.14 - Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:51 AM EST
                                            ohiogal-479871

                                            double post

                                              #7.15 - Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:26 AM EST
                                              ohiogal-479871

                                              Would a child with peanut allergies react differently than one without if fed peanuts?

                                              Interesting analogy.

                                              Allergies arise out of an overreaction to an innocuous stimulus. Are you now implying that autism is an overreaction to innocuous formula?

                                              • 2 votes
                                              #7.16 - Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:26 AM EST
                                              penguin15

                                              All autistic individuals didn't become autistic for the same reasons.

                                              So we don't know what caused everyone's autism, but you know for a fact that infant formula caused your son's condition? Yeah right, Mike.

                                              • 1 vote
                                              #7.17 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:12 PM EST
                                              Reply
                                              Mike Pescatore

                                              Penguin, I haven't even discussed the triggering effects that were known by the IOM. Don't tell me what I have or have not found. You have all the answers. Answer this. What would happen if we replaced natural DHA/ARA with altered triacylglycerols of DHASCO/ARASCO? How would diacylglycerols, after hydrolysis affect protein signaling?Surely a palmitic and DHA molecule would be different from a DHA and DHA molecule. How does this affect GPI anchored proteins as second messengers? What happens when we inhibit palmitoylation and lose deactivation of protein signaling? Could we expext non stop signaling and depletion of synaptic vesicle reserves? Isn't neuroinflammation and glutamate toxicity a concern? You know, constant signaling? Penguin, I'm only getting started. I'll explain heavy metal accumulation due to perturbations in redox status. I think it's safe to say that you and I don't know everything. One of us claims he does. After all, if you had all the answers, you wouldn't be blogging, you would be on the cover of Time magazine.

                                                Reply#8 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 7:35 PM EST
                                                Robert-1126350

                                                Penguin is a scientist, a biochemist, a researcher, and a fortune 500 employee. Don't expect him to know fatty acid metabolism too.

                                                  #8.1 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 7:44 PM EST
                                                  penguin15

                                                  I think it's safe to say that you and I don't know everything. One of us claims he does.

                                                  Yeah, that one was you. I suggested that autism has a genetic component, you said absolutely not, has to be your way or the highway. You have stated that autism does not have anything to do with genetics. I'm sorry you feel that way, but the evidence states otherwise.

                                                  No, we don't know everything. But to claim it HAS to be your way is ignorant, especially when your research has been turned down by the FDA a dozen times for not sufficiently proving your hypothesis.

                                                  Penguin is a scientist, a biochemist, a researcher, and a fortune 500 employee. Don't expect him to know fatty acid metabolism too.

                                                  Robert, a biochemist is certainly knowledgeable on metabolism of fatty acids. A layman like yourself wouldn't be. The problem is, though, that Mike has not sufficiently explained why this phenomenon he keeps touting only happens with less than 1% of children. Surely if this were truly the root cause (not just a trigger or something less significant), it would show up in more people. He has a THEORY, and has not proven that this creates the condition. Thus, the numerous rejections by scientific bodies.

                                                  What would happen if we replaced natural DHA/ARA with altered triacylglycerols of DHASCO/ARASCO? How would diacylglycerols, after hydrolysis affect protein signaling?Surely a palmitic and DHA molecule would be different from a DHA and DHA molecule. How does this affect GPI anchored proteins as second messengers? What happens when we inhibit palmitoylation and lose deactivation of protein signaling? Could we expext non stop signaling and depletion of synaptic vesicle reserves? Isn't neuroinflammation and glutamate toxicity a concern? You know, constant signaling? Penguin, I'm only getting started. I'll explain heavy metal accumulation due to perturbations in redox status.

                                                  Lots of questions you pose. Have you shown how these mechanisms create autism? No? Then you have just as many concrete answers as I do, i.e. NONE. Yet you easily dismiss the notion that autism could be genetic. Until you show that these issues create autism, then you have a THEORY, NOT A CAUSE. Just like Robert thinks that vaccines cause autism, you think DHA does. Both of you have reasons you think this, and you have a mechanism for how these chemicals interact in the body, but nothing links that to autism. Again, if this didn't involve genetics, everyone getting DHA, etc. would get autism. But that's not the case. It's your job as a researcher to ask "why" -- and also "why not". Why DIDN'T this mechanism happen in "normal" children? Could be genetic. COULD, not is. But you completely dismiss genetics. WHY??? Because you have a biased opinion.

                                                  You've found a potential trigger. Now look for the root cause.

                                                  • 3 votes
                                                  #8.2 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:45 PM EST
                                                  Reply
                                                  Mike Pescatore

                                                  Too funny Robert! I don't pay much attention to him. He is always on sites telling people they're stupid and giving his genetics speech. I try to understand what can be causing this terrible disease. I am just a father who has done a lot of research. Unlike him, you asked about VLCAD. That proves you're following what I have said. Thanks, I will look for those publications and share. I'm afraid that we haven't heard the last of the penguin. Where is Batman when you need him?

                                                    Reply#9 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 8:12 PM EST
                                                    penguin15

                                                    He is always on sites telling people they're stupid and giving his genetics speech.

                                                    I love how you just keep lying, Mike. Again, I reiterate, because you can't seem to grasp this, Newsvine is the ONLY site I'm on, yet you continue to perpetuate this lie you've got in your head. Why? Why do you have to lie to get your point across? Please tell me what other sites you've "seen" me on, or just stop. Lies suck. Stop it and be truthful.

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #9.1 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:49 PM EST
                                                    penguin15

                                                    Unlike him, you asked about VLCAD. That proves you're following what I have said.

                                                    No, it just shows he can repeat things. And is proficient at cut and paste. He doesn't understand any of it.

                                                    I try to understand what can be causing this terrible disease. I am just a father who has done a lot of research.

                                                    First off, it's ABHORRENT that you call autism a "disease". That just turns my stomach. As a parent, you should know better. Second, you have one theory that you've spent years trying to mold the data around. That's not research. Research is being OBJECTIVE and fitting a model to the data, not vice versa. Open your mind to the idea that genetics (as well as other things) might be at play. Autism was around before DHA supplements were, Mike. Keep it objective.

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #9.2 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:52 PM EST
                                                    Reply
                                                    Mark Pescatore

                                                    Penquin, would brain damage be considered genetic as well? If so , you might want to check and see if it runs in the family..

                                                      Reply#10 - Tue Nov 9, 2010 8:23 PM EST
                                                      penguin15

                                                      You know, making light of your nephew's brain condition really makes you look like a terrible person. I'm sure your autistic nephew is proud that you call others brain-damaged on a website. Real proud moment for the family.

                                                      Do you seriously think that calling me brain-damaged helps get your point across? Sad.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #10.1 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:56 PM EST
                                                      Reply
                                                      Mike Pescatore

                                                      http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/07/a-clear-biomarker-for-autism-the-question-of-alterations-in-lipid-metabolism.html

                                                      Robert, here is one of many publications that reference VLCAD to autism. Notice how elevated DHA has been found. Some researchers have found diminished levels as well. Very low levels of cholesterol , similiar to those found in SLOS have been shown also. I believe lipid metabolism dysregulation plays a major role in causation. If you want to initiate this dysregulation, altering triacylglycerols would be a way to start.

                                                        Reply#11 - Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:00 AM EST
                                                        Robert-1126350

                                                        Very Interesting.

                                                        The question of how glutamate may adversely affect the brain was addressed by the researchers. “Glutamate was used for the following reasons: it plays a major role in microgliosis, which is pervasive in autism; its ability to deplete glutathione is well-documented; and it has been reported to impair mitochondrial beta-oxidation, which is central to our hypothesis.”

                                                        Estrogen protects primary cortical neurons from glutamate toxicity*1

                                                        http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T0G-3TT63F3-S&_user=10&_coverDate=07%2F05%2F1996&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1535579772&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=f534b33318397996508b645244e481c0&searchtype=a

                                                          #11.1 - Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:14 AM EST
                                                          penguin15

                                                          And what could be the potential reason that these fatty acids are created in the body? Oh yeah, the child's DNA! Thanks for proving my point guys!

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #11.2 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:01 PM EST
                                                          Robert-1126350

                                                          HAHA. I would say gotcha but you'll weasle your nonscientific ass out of this one too.

                                                          Essential fatty acids, or EFAs, are fatty acids that humans and other animals must ingest for good health because the body requires them but can't make them from other food components. The term refers to fatty acids required for biological processes, and not those that only act as fuel.

                                                          Stop posing like a scientist! It's dishonest.

                                                          Identifying a Pathological Liar

                                                          http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_you_tell_if_someone_is_a_pathological_liar

                                                          1. Exaggerates things that are ridiculous.
                                                          2. One-upping. Whatever you do, this person can do it better. You will never top them in their own mind, because they have a concerted need to be better than everyone else. This also applies to being right. If you try to confront an individual like this, no matter how lovingly and well-intentioned you might be - this will probably not be effective. It's threatening their fantasy of themselves, so they would rather argue with you and bring out the sharp knives than admit that there's anything wrong with them.
                                                          3. They "construct" a reality around themselves. They don't value the truth, especially if they don't see it as hurting anyone. If you call them on a lie and they are backed into a corner, they will act very defensively and say ugly things (most likely but depends on personality), but they may eventually start to act like, "Well, what's the difference? You're making a big deal out of nothing!" (again, to refocus the conversation to your wrongdoing instead of theirs).
                                                          4. Because these people don't value honesty, a lot of times they will not value loyalty. So watch what you tell them. They will not only tell others, but they will embellish to make you look worse. Their loyalty is fleeting, and because they are insecure people, they will find solace in confiding to whomever is in their favor at the moment.
                                                          5. They may be somewhat of a hypochondriac. This can come in especially useful when caught in a lie, for example, they can claim that they have been sick, or that there's some mysteriously "illness" that has them all stressed out. It's another excuse tool for their behavior.
                                                          6. Obviously, they will contradict what they say. This will become very clear over time. They usually aren't smart enough to keep track of so many lies (who would be?).

                                                          Another WikiAnswers contributor adds:

                                                          • They lie about even the smallest things. For example, saying "I brushed my teeth today," when they didn't.
                                                          • They add exaggerations to every sentence.
                                                          • They change their story all the time.
                                                          • They act very defensively when you question their statements.
                                                          • They believe what they say is true, when everyone else knows it isn't.

                                                          An alternate 'checklist':

                                                          • Lies when it is very easy to tell the truth.
                                                          • Lies to get sympathy, to look better, to save their butt, etc.
                                                          • Fools people at first but once they get to know him, no one believes anything they ever say.
                                                          • May have a personality disorder.
                                                          • Extremely manipulative.
                                                          • Has been caught in lies repeatedly.
                                                          • Never fesses up to the lies.
                                                          • Is a legend in their own mind.
                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #11.3 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:09 PM EST
                                                          Robert-1126350

                                                          The central dogma of dna that EVERY scientist knows. DNA makes RNA makes Protein.

                                                          Not essential fatty acids, Penguin. Not a a scientist.

                                                            #11.4 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:18 PM EST
                                                            penguin15

                                                            HAHA. I would say gotcha but you'll weasle your nonscientific ass out of this one too.

                                                            Yeah, so ummm...I guess babies have no fatty acids when they're born? This study didn't specify that the results were only on "essential" fatty acids, just very long chain ones...seriously, can you read?

                                                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid

                                                            • 2 votes
                                                            #11.5 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:05 PM EST
                                                            Robert-1126350

                                                            Yeah, so ummm...I guess babies have no fatty acids when they're born?

                                                            I'd like to see you explain how babies dna makes essential fatty acids.

                                                            This study didn't specify that the results were only on "essential" fatty acids, just very long chain ones...seriously, can you read?

                                                            Again, you are just showing you have no clue what you're talking about. Your time is up. Not a scientist.

                                                              #11.6 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:12 PM EST
                                                              penguin15

                                                              I'd like to see you explain how babies dna makes essential fatty acids.

                                                              Robert, it's clear you have no knowledge of biochemistry. There are only 2 essential fatty acids, which cannot be manufactured by the body. All of the other fatty acids are made by our body, under control of...guess what?...DNA! Reread my statement "I guess babies have no fatty acids when they're born?". Did I use "essential" in there? Strawman!

                                                              Again, you are just showing you have no clue what you're talking about. Your time is up. Not a scientist.

                                                              Robert, reread the study...nowhere did it say "essential fatty acids"...maybe you would like it to say that, but the facts are that "very long-chain fatty acids" are NOT the same thing. Sorry. Strawman!

                                                              • 2 votes
                                                              #11.7 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:00 AM EST
                                                              Robert-1126350

                                                              Robert, it's clear you have no knowledge of biochemistry. There are only 2 essential fatty acids, which cannot be manufactured by the body. All of the other fatty acids are made by our body, under control of...guess what?...DNA! Reread my statement "I guess babies have no fatty acids when they're born?". Did I use "essential" in there?

                                                              So explain how the body makes EPA and DHA from scratch with no help from the environment. The "DNA did It" isn't going to help you here.

                                                                #11.8 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:21 AM EST
                                                                penguin15

                                                                Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. DHA and EPA are not essential fatty acids. See the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_fatty_acid

                                                                Not only are they not essential:

                                                                Traditionally speaking the LC-PUFA are not essential.

                                                                They are created in the body when the essential fatty acids are made into the longer-chain PUFAs.

                                                                So not only have I debunked your theory that they're essential, I've also shown how they're created in the body...you're 0 for 2, Robert.

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #11.9 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 1:42 PM EST
                                                                Reply
                                                                Mike Pescatore

                                                                I do have to comment on Penguin's thoughts regarding the FDA. The FDA has not shot anything down. I have submitted well over a dozen emails directly to Martha Hamburg's office. I have gotten two written responses. One from Dr. Mitchell Cheeseman-(defends the safety of Bisphenol A through publications provided by the manufacturers) who answers none of my specific questions. He states that these formulas are safe because the rate of intolerance has not increased. He admits that manufacturers do not submit adverse events reported to the FDA. He admits that under reporting exists. The FDA only used reports that were submitted directly to the FDA to measure the rate of increase for intolerance. The report that I submitted 2 years ago was not in their records. They told me that the reason for this was because they felt at the time it was an information request. Of course, they never responded with any information. In fact, I have made @ 8 Freedom of information act requests for adverse events reported. I got two different CDs- Both differring in the number of reports. Just can't get a straight answer.

                                                                Martha Hamburg's office responded. They feel that they have thoroughly responded to my safety concerns. Didn't bother to address any specific questions. I pointed out that the initial safety info given when manufacturers applied for their Generally Regarded As Safe status was not accurate. I informed them that the very expert panel they convened to evaluate the safety of these new bioactive ingredients confirmed this fact and warned of unknown effects.

                                                                In the past year, it has become clear that the FDA is ill equipt to keep people safe from harm. One might ask what they really get paid to do. Allowing GRAS bioactive ingredients to be added to infant formula that may exert unknown triggering effects?

                                                                Someone is benefitting from these formulas.Let's take a look and see.....

                                                                  Reply#12 - Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:36 AM EST
                                                                  penguin15

                                                                  I realize it's not your fault the information was presented poorly, but the article above stated your correspondence with the FDA in a different light.

                                                                  Now, is the FDA supposed to take the time out of their busy schedule to write a detailed response to every potential quack who questions them? They're understaffed as is. I would expect that replies to informal e-mail requests would be of the brush-off nature you received. If you have potential data, submit it for formal review, and you may have something more formal in return. Send an e-mail, you'll get a response similar to yours -- informal and to the point (i.e. no problems noted).

                                                                  I appreciate your concerns, but informal studies are not research when it comes to questioning approved product out on the market. Set up formal blinded studies and submit them for review and you might get somewhere. Sorry to be blunt, but I doubt anyone would receive formal responses and investigations into all of these requests you've given.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #12.1 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:17 PM EST
                                                                  Mike Pescatore

                                                                  The FDA take time out of there busy schedule? I had no idea you were also a comedian. They are understaffed? Generally Regarded As Safe means exactly what it implies. The component with this status is safe in a general way. The safety info was provided by the manufacturer. The product monitoring of adverse events is done by the manufacturer. What does the FDA do? They wait until a GRAS product harms countless people and the manufacturer pulls the product after class action lawsuits. Why do you think there is a GRAS status? So when a product carrying this label causes this level of harm, the FDA is not responsible-That's the manufacturers job. What is the FDA's role in all of this? To get paid by manufacturers and taxpayers.

                                                                    #12.2 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:24 PM EST
                                                                    penguin15

                                                                    The FDA take time out of there busy schedule? I had no idea you were also a comedian. They are understaffed?

                                                                    Completely understaffed, Mike. I don't know where you see all of these inspectors twiddling their thumbs, but they are so understaffed that they can't even inspect all of their required manufacturing facilities (which by law they are required to do once every 2 years), much less respond to your e-mails. Unfortunately they now employ a "risk-based" approach when inspecting facilities (i.e. if they have a good track record, the plant is usually skipped). Would that happen if they were overstaffed?

                                                                    And why should they respond to your e-mails? If you have evidence, why not submit it for peer review? Why should your informal e-mail correspondence be met with the highest level of scrutiny?

                                                                    What does the FDA do? They wait until a GRAS product harms countless people and the manufacturer pulls the product after class action lawsuits.

                                                                    The FDA reviews efficacy and safety of every product before it goes to market. It reviews safety data and adverse events post-release when presented and questioned FORMALLY (not in e-mail by some random guy off the street). They don't wait for lawsuits before questioning a product. This may be your opinion, but it's certainly not fact. The FDA routinely denies products for safety and efficacy concerns (see Pfizer's torcetracib drug denial a few years ago as an example).

                                                                    So when a product carrying this label causes this level of harm, the FDA is not responsible

                                                                    Uh, in a word, no. You don't think the people reviewing the safety data would be responsible? Look at the uproar over Celebrex, Vioxx, Bextra, etc. Oh, and how about ephedra? Immediately pulled off the market upon safety data being reviewed. So your ideas, which have not been proven in a scientific study, haven't amounted to a recall because you have a THEORY, not evidence. Once you formally present your theory, and show the mechanism you think exists, then they'll take you seriously. Until then, you have a theory...that's all.

                                                                    What is the FDA's role in all of this? To get paid by manufacturers and taxpayers.

                                                                    You clearly do not understand how the FDA is funded. No money from public companies is handed to the FDA. Drug applications cost money in the form of review fees (just as any gov't entity has), but to claim that the FDA is paid off by the manufacturers is ludicrous. Please stop making up a fictional story...it's embarrassing.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #12.3 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:13 AM EST
                                                                    Reply
                                                                    Mike Pescatore

                                                                    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/136731.php

                                                                    Well it appears that different levels of DHA/ARA may have a gender effect. There is something else that appears to be gender specific...oh yes, the occurrence of autism.

                                                                    Wow! Increasing the level to three times what is found in today's formulas provides no benefit for males. Dr. Norman Salem states that this is great news. Not sure why there is an absence of benefit but concludes that no longer are we questioning whether or not benefit exists, but rather how much more is needed. Very exciting indeed! I know I would be excited if I worked for a company as the chief scientific officer and realized that my company's product failed to provide the benefits claimed at three times the dosage. Parents should be excited to realize that they paid extra for a lack of benefits for their son. Forget improvements, I would be very excited if my son had normal brain development.

                                                                      Reply#13 - Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:35 AM EST
                                                                      penguin15

                                                                      Parents should be excited to realize that they paid extra for a lack of benefits for their son

                                                                      Whoa, Mike,hold on there...you're making HUGE inferences. There are plenty of differences at play here. First, we're talking about DHA and ARA made ONLY by one company that was used in this study. Secondly, we're talking about ONLY premature infants, which could explain the male/female difference, in that we're essentially all female until certain hormones kick in and "make" us male. Being that these were only premies, you're looking at babies who were limited in the time available to get the "male hormones". You're also looking at developmental tests at around the age of 18 months, at the early edge of the usual time that autistic symptoms are coming to light. With premies, this could realistically be 15 months of age when developmentally compared to full-term babies, well before the usual age autism rears its head.

                                                                      Before you claim that males didn't get a benefit, you've got to consider that only one formula was used on premature babies. Most autistic children are not premies and do not use this type of formula. To consider this the reason for the 4:1 ratio is ludicrous. To consider that the parents "wasted their money" is also ludicrous, as numerous studies have shown the ability of DHA supplements to help development. I also don't see your point, as you're trying to prove that DHA negatively affects infant development, but this study refutes that.

                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                      #13.1 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:35 PM EST
                                                                      Mike Pescatore

                                                                      Penguin,who made the DHA/ARA used in this study. The same manufacturer that supplies greater than 90% of all infant formulas. Norman Salem recognizes that this study shows no benefit at three times today's supplementation level. He is only the Chief scientific medical officer for this company. Where did I say that this accounts for the 4:1 ratio of boys to girls? I have yet to mention testosterone and estrogen or protein triggering effects in detail.The studies of benefit that you are referring to are funded by the manufacturers, and most of those are poorly done and underpowered. I did post the most recent findings of all these studies. I suggest you analyze those results.

                                                                        #13.2 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:08 PM EST
                                                                        penguin15

                                                                        Where did I say that this accounts for the 4:1 ratio of boys to girls?

                                                                        Right here:

                                                                        Well it appears that different levels of DHA/ARA may have a gender effect. There is something else that appears to be gender specific...oh yes, the occurrence of autism.

                                                                        Funny that you contradict yourself right there. You say that DHA/ARA accounts for the gender effect, then deny you said any of it. Hmmm.

                                                                        I have yet to mention testosterone and estrogen or protein triggering effects in detail.

                                                                        You've yet to mention ANYTHING in detail. You just have ideas, but no proof of a mechanism of action. What you have is a theory, nothing more. Show me that your DHA/ARA causes brain damage resulting in autism. You haven't yet provided any evidence of that, which is your main theory. Without the mechanism, you have a theory. End of story.

                                                                        I did post the most recent findings of all these studies. I suggest you analyze those results.

                                                                        Finding that DHA/ARA provides no benefit in development is not the same as showing that DHA/ARA induces autism. C'mon man.

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        #13.3 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:18 AM EST
                                                                        Mike Pescatore

                                                                        I have mentioned many things in detail. Not everything. I'm too busy commenting on your nonsense. I have asked you a few specific questions. Ones that you cannot answer. But that's the point. These triggering effects are unknown. They are involved with cellular pathways regarding brain development. Maybe you feel that is unimportant. I really don't know what your goal is. Is it ok for me to tell parents that these manufacturers are experimenting with infant development? Have you heard of oxidative damage and mitochondrial dysfunction? Do you know that peroxidized DHA/ARA have been found to cause lysine protein adducts in the autistic brain? Do you know that lipid metabolism dysregulation plays a huge role in virtually every neurodegenerative disease? No, you don't know much of anything. I'm trying to expose a possible environmental factor that may be responsible for a percentage of autism. Certainly not the sole cause. That's not good enough for you. You have nothing to add or any theory of your own. Would it be alright if I had the chance to finish explaining my theory to those who may be interested, and unlike you, might not know it all?

                                                                          #13.4 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:40 AM EST
                                                                          penguin15

                                                                          You may have shown that DHA/ARA inhibits enzymes, etc. but that doesn't mean it induces autism, Mike.

                                                                          I have asked you a few specific questions. Ones that you cannot answer.

                                                                          Which questions haven't I answered? Or is this more fiction you've invented?

                                                                          Do you know that lipid metabolism dysregulation plays a huge role in virtually every neurodegenerative disease?

                                                                          Do you know that lipid metabolism dysregulation can be caused by genetics? Nope, you just focus on anything else.

                                                                          I'm trying to expose a possible environmental factor that may be responsible for a percentage of autism.

                                                                          Without taking into account that those very things may have genetic causes behind them, like mitochondrial or metabolism conditions.

                                                                          You have nothing to add or any theory of your own.

                                                                          Actually, I've made my theory quite clear. Many of the "dysregulation" ideas you have can be caused by genetics, but you only see the chemical aspects. You have blinders on.

                                                                          My theory (in case you missed it, Mike): DNA anomalies = susceptible to triggers = autism (when exposed to triggers).

                                                                          Without DNA anomalies, kids aren't susceptible to triggers = no autism.

                                                                          • 2 votes
                                                                          #13.5 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:05 AM EST
                                                                          Robert-1126350

                                                                          Penguin:

                                                                          Which questions haven't I answered? Or is this more fiction you've invented?

                                                                          All of them. You haven't answered any questions. You've only talked in circles in order to completely avoid questions that you can't answer. When you don't know the answer to something, just admit it. Science is about questions. Scientists don't have all of the answers. Hell, they don't even have all the questions.

                                                                          Do you know that lipid metabolism dysregulation can be caused by genetics? Nope, you just focus on anything else.

                                                                          So what factors influence phenotype expression, Penguin? I'll wait for you to google "phenotype".

                                                                            #13.6 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:27 AM EST
                                                                            penguin15

                                                                            All of them.

                                                                            Brilliant response there, Robert. I ask you for specifics and you avoid them. Coward.

                                                                            So what factors influence phenotype expression, Penguin? I'll wait for you to google "phenotype".

                                                                            As a biochemist who's studied genetics, I'm well aware of what "phenotype" means. Unfortunately for you, you're the one that needs to google it. From Wikipedia:

                                                                            Phenotypes result from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and the interactions between the two.

                                                                            So the environment may influence the expression of genes, but the underlying root is still genetic. With autism, the environment may alter the expression of the genes, but the reason the child expresses/does not express autistic symptoms is due to the genes. Without the genotype for autism, the associated phenotype (child being autistic) would not occur. Thanks for proving my point, Robert. You really don't understand this, do you?

                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                            #13.7 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 1:58 PM EST
                                                                            Reply
                                                                            Mike Pescatore

                                                                            http://adc.bmj.com/content/95/8/588.abstract

                                                                            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12458618 - I'm confused. I thought benefits to eye development were actually why DHA/ARA was added to infant formulas. Norman Salem participated in this publication.

                                                                            Is there substantial evidence that questions the benefits of supplementation? Why yes there is-

                                                                            http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.indianpediatrics.net%2Fsep2009%2F783.pdf&ei=jOHaTPv6GoOosQO8pvCGCA&usg=AFQjCNHcWA_NE45_CZWGHO4lEla_6YKXCg

                                                                            Why is it even added? I think this statement says it all-

                                                                            ” As noted in a Martek investment promotion from 1996 (and quoted in the Cornucopia Institute’s report), “Even if [the DHA/ARA blend] has no benefit, we think it would be widely incorporated into formulas, as a marketing tool and to allow companies to promote their formula as ‘closest to human milk.’”

                                                                            They were right. It is now widely incorporated into formulas promoted as closest to human mik.

                                                                              Reply#14 - Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:24 PM EST
                                                                              Gina-2641124

                                                                              I am just a Special Education Teacher so I am not up on the scientific stuff .. I know what I know from work and IEP meetings and experience. In New Jersey, where I live, the ASD rate is 1 in 94, higher than the national average of 1 in 110. There are many theories as to why there is an increase, such as, vaccines or some "environmental trigger"" might be involved, advanced paternal and maternal age, and good ol’ genetics.

                                                                              Regardless, we do know that an increased awareness about autism is linked to an increase in the number of children who are diagnosed. Twenty years ago, a child who struggled with communication and speech, social ability, and who presented “challenging behaviors” would not have been diagnosed ASD. He/she may have been classified as “mental retarded” or with something like emotional-behavioral disorder. A child who is on the milder side of the ASD may been known as the “weird kid” in class (you know who they were .. today they would be diagnosed as ASD).

                                                                              Very early studies claimed that autism was caused by uninterested, cold parents who could not bond with their children. As you can imagine, for parents, the idea they are to blame creates a great deal of guilt on top of the grief they feel when they find their child showing the behaviors characteristic of autism. (BTW, we now know different …In 1977, Autism Society of America stated, “No known factors in the psychological environment of a child have been shown to cause autism.” However, parents are STILL trying to overcome the guilt that they caused the autism. So I get why parents want answers … they want to make sure they did not cause it, or they want to help others and create awareness.

                                                                              Research shows (and please, I am not a Dr. nor a Research Scientist, REMEMBER, I am just a Special Education Teacher and Mom) that there is clearly a genetic component to the disorder and having one child with autism greatly increases the chances of having another child with autism. (my friend has TWO autistic children one moderate and one severe). However, we know that genetics is not the only factor involved. (If one identical twin has autism, the other twin may not, identical twins share the same genes)

                                                                              So, some other factor must be contributing to the presence of autism. I think its called complex inheritance where there are multiple genetic factors are involved, which in combination may cause a child develop ASD. It seems reasonable to me that in addition to having the right “cocktail” of these genes the exposure to certain environmental factors might lead to the development of autism in some individuals (National Alliance for Autism Research, 2002).

                                                                              Karen, I guess what I am trying to say that at this point almost it seems that ANYTHING can trigger the development of autism in children who inherit these “cocktail” of genes. It’s sad to think that crap is added to infant formula as a marketing tool, but as a former marketing person, I am sure that it has been done. And I agree .... messing with infant formula is inexcusable and horrific, which may be the reason the government is "unresponsive." It is even sadder to think that this additive could possibly be a trigger. However, where do we draw the line? Because as it stands now, parents who THOUGHT they were doing the right thing by immunizing their kids are freaking out and now the mom’s who didn’t breastfeed are feeling even more guilt because they didn’t breastfeed Because now they may have exposed their child to autism.

                                                                              Karen, you have something here, but I think the key needs to be what additives, environmental factors, etc .. are the triggers that "bring out" the ASD and if these triggers were NOT introduced would the child have developed ASD regardless? Just a thought ... :-)

                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                              Reply#15 - Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:52 PM EST
                                                                              penguin15

                                                                              Thank you. At least someone can comprehend the idea that genetic factors might be at play here.

                                                                              While it's interesting what's been added to infant formula, just because autism incidence has increased during that time does not mean that the infant formula additions are causative. Many things are correlated without causation.

                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                              #15.1 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:20 AM EST
                                                                              Mike Pescatore

                                                                              Of course these additives are not causative. You know this because you have studied the structural differences and their effects on protein signaling and mitochondrial function. You understand how unique diacyglycerols generated after hydrolosis differ than natural phospholipids and how that alters downstream signaling on GPI-anchored proteins as second messengers. You're right Penguin. It's just silly to think that manufacturers would add things to infant formulas that may be unsafe in order to make money. When has that ever happened? The FDA would allow this to happen. They never allowed anything to harm anyone.

                                                                              Help me out. What genetic abnormality affected my son. Give me something. What gene, chromosome, anything? What genetic underpinnings caused my son to regress into severe autism. As you can see from above, I actually have something that is real and needs to be exposed. I have done the research and came up with the same thing the Institute of Medicine did in 2004. Two years after this garbage was added to infant formulas. I have also said that genetic predisposition may account for a pecentage of phenotype, but surely not all like you suggest. I think we all get it. Autism is a genetic disease, since we are made from DNA. We shouldn't examine anything else because it would be counter productive. If you have autism, sorry, you were doomed from the beginning with your junk DNA.

                                                                                #15.2 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:03 AM EST
                                                                                penguin15

                                                                                You're right Penguin. It's just silly to think that manufacturers would add things to infant formulas that may be unsafe in order to make money.

                                                                                Mike, I never said that they couldn't be the reason. What I said was that just because they were added DOES NOT mean they're causative. Two different things entirely. You seem to focus on "look at what those meanies put into our formula, that must mean they're up to no good". Just because they're correlated does not mean they're causative!

                                                                                What genetic abnormality affected my son. Give me something. What gene, chromosome, anything? What genetic underpinnings caused my son to regress into severe autism.

                                                                                You prove my point, Mike. Just because YOU are normal, your son should be too, right? But what if he had some DNA anomaly during his development in the womb? That could be the cause, and you wouldn't hear of it because you're normal and so is your wife. So it couldn't possibly be genetic.

                                                                                Autism is a genetic disease, since we are made from DNA. We shouldn't examine anything else because it would be counter productive. If you have autism, sorry, you were doomed from the beginning with your junk DNA.

                                                                                That's not my position, Mike, and you know it. All I'm saying is that you completely dismiss genetics as a cause for your son's autism because you and your wife are normal. That's not how genetics works, my friend.

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                #15.3 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:10 AM EST
                                                                                Robert-1126350

                                                                                What I said was that just because they were added DOES NOT mean they're causative. Two different things entirely.

                                                                                That is not his argument, Penquin. That is your strawman argument. He's not making an argument of "just because it's in there it must be bad". It's dishonest to put words into people's mouths.

                                                                                Just because they're correlated does not mean they're causative!

                                                                                You keep throwing around the "correlation does not equal causation" cliche. I don't think you understand what that means. Should we dismiss all correlation and just say they are not causative and not investigate?

                                                                                High cholesterol doesn't cause heart attacks but there is a correlation(it could be argued that it's a weak correlation). But it's not causation.

                                                                                This correlation doesn't stop doctors from prescribing million of cholesterol lowering medications. You're fine with that correlation aren't you? Examine your belief system critically and you'll find many errors in it.

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                #15.4 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:15 PM EST
                                                                                Robert-1126350

                                                                                Just because one works for a fortune 500 company and has taken science classes (allegedly) does not make one a scientist. Do not mistake correlation for causation.

                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                #15.5 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:15 PM EST
                                                                                penguin15

                                                                                He's not making an argument of "just because it's in there it must be bad".

                                                                                No, what he did was show that there was an increase in the chemical's usage along with an increase in autism (correlation) and assumed that it was a causative agent. There is NO research that he's done to show that children whose mothers received DHA, etc. were more susceptible to getting autism. That is what's needed to show causation. Without it, no proof. You can show all you want that DHA, etc. does whatever you want in the body. But without showing the link to autism, you don't have causation. Period.

                                                                                You keep throwing around the "correlation does not equal causation" cliche. I don't think you understand what that means. Should we dismiss all correlation and just say they are not causative and not investigate?

                                                                                It's obvious you're the one who doesn't understand the meaning. Many things can be correlated without being causative. Two things can increase together, as cell phone usage and autism have, without being causative. Two things can decrease together, as landline telephone usage and the number of polar bears in the Arctic have, without being causative. Are some things both correlated and linked causally? Sure there are. The decrease in the number of landline telephones and the increase in the number of cell phones are linked causally. I'm not saying that SOME things that are correlated aren't causally linked. What I'm saying is that all things that are correlated are not necessarily causative. Two different statements, which you're confusing (whether intentionally or not).

                                                                                Of course you don't stop investigating correlations. But you also don't assign cause to one thing only because of a correlation. If it's causative, research will show it to be. As of now, no research has shown autism to be caused by DHA, etc. Mike's research does not show causation with regard to autism. Sorry.

                                                                                The point: Just because DHA usage has increased along with the rise in autism diagnoses does NOT mean that one caused the other. To show this you need to show that subset A took more DHA supplements than subset B and as a result, has a higher prevalence of autism than subset B. Or you can show that DHA alters the brain and induces the symptoms related to autism. Neither one has been shown by this research, hence no proof that they're causative.

                                                                                Finally, the recent brain scan article (see my Newsvine history from December) shows that there is the potential for a distinct BIOLOGICAL reason for autism unrelated to vaccines, environment, DHA, etc. Perhaps it's genetic/biological after all!

                                                                                Just because one works for a fortune 500 company and has taken science classes (allegedly) does not make one a scientist. Do not mistake correlation for causation.

                                                                                Actually, when one graduates with a degree in a science-related field and works in a scientific-related industry, one is a scientist. That's not correlation, that's fact.

                                                                                  #15.6 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 2:36 PM EST
                                                                                  Mike Pescatore

                                                                                  "As of now, no research has shown autism to be caused by DHA, etc. Mike's research does not show causation with regard to autism. Sorry."

                                                                                  The publication regarding DHA/ARA peroxidation forming adducts in the autistic brain is not proof?

                                                                                  The authors suggest that it may be the root cause. Wrong again Penguin.

                                                                                    #15.7 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:59 AM EST
                                                                                    penguin15

                                                                                    Which publication? You've just linked to DHA/ARA forming adducts...it does NOT say it is creating autism, sorry. Care to link to it and highlight the passage that shows these chemicals create autism?

                                                                                    As for your theory, potential pitfalls include:

                                                                                    • Why does it affect boys 4 times more than girls? You've promised your answer for a year now, but no response
                                                                                    • Why aren't formula-fed babies more likely than breast-fed ones to get autism? Surely if this were true than you'd see an increased incidence rate.

                                                                                    You've yet to explain these and give a paper concluding that autism is from these chemicals. Hence the judge rejecting your theory TWICE and the FDA rejecting it a dozen times.

                                                                                      #15.8 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:35 AM EST
                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                      Mike Pescatore

                                                                                      Gina, there are certainly many diseases that are genetically acquired. Autism being one of them. As with many of these diseases, the genetic phenotype usually accounts for a small percentage overall of actual causation. For example, my wife's as well as my own family's history, as far back as I can remember, has never had anyone with autism or anything that remotely resembles it. My son is severely autistic. He was developing normally and then regressed, losing all previous language. Others had witnessed this regression very soon after vaccinations of a fever of undetermined origin. The point is, autism is not a well understood disease. It's a labeling system. You may ask yourself, if in fact genetics were more than likely the cause, why the varying degree of severity? When we start talking about genes and genetic underpinnings, keep in mind that DNA is not impervious to damage from exogenous sources. The peroxidation of the oils used in infant formulas are well recognized to cause protein and DNA damage. So it is quite possible to not have this damage until it is created. By analogy, it would be foolish to state that lung cancer is only caused to those whom were genetically predisposed, and exogenous factors such as smoking play an insignificant roll in causation.

                                                                                      I have yet to see evidence that regressive autism was reported at the rate it is today,after such events like vaccination injury or fever. These reports have skyrocketed. I'm not talking about just autism in general, rather the increase in reports from real parents that have witnessed this regression first hand. This is why parents associate vaccination injury with autism, and are so convinced that there is a connection.They have witnessed it with their own eyes. Tough to talk them out of that no matter how many genes may be involved.

                                                                                      Gina, you asked where do we draw the line? We draw the line between right and wrong. Between safety above company profits. I draw the line when I realize my son was used as an experiment.I understand that not many will appreciate feeling guilty about vaccinations or choosing not to breast feed. Its a rather selfish take on this. I live with the fact that my son had infant formula ingredients that more than likely caused his condition, and I fed it to him. Given the option, I would choose to be better informed by those in a position to do so.

                                                                                      I am up on the science stuff. I understand what these supplements can do. If they can cause one child a triggering effect that results in autism, that's one child too many.

                                                                                      "Karen, you have something here, but I think the key needs to be what additives, environmental factors, etc .. are the triggers that "bring out" the ASD and if these triggers were NOT introduced would the child have developed ASD regardless? Just a thought ... :-)"

                                                                                      I think we are talking about additives in formula as a world wide environmental factor that may exert triggering effects on cellular pathways involved with brain and eye development. Well, that what the Institute of Medicine warned manufacturers about. I didn't write it, just learned the science stuff to support it.

                                                                                        Reply#16 - Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:17 PM EST
                                                                                        penguin15

                                                                                        As with many of these diseases, the genetic phenotype usually accounts for a small percentage overall of actual causation.

                                                                                        Mike, you honestly have no proof that genetics only account for a small percentage of causation, especially with autism.

                                                                                        For example, my wife's as well as my own family's history, as far back as I can remember, has never had anyone with autism or anything that remotely resembles it. My son is severely autistic.

                                                                                        And this is the crux of your entire argument. No one with outward signs in the families, so it couldn't possibly be genetic. I'm sorry, Mike, but that's just not how it works, especially with genetics. No one else but your children (at least I hope not) have been the recipients of a combination of both your wife's family's genes and yours. Therefore no one else has had the potential for the gene combinations your children have. Additionally, autism's been linked to additions, deletions, and repetitions in genes, which means that simple mutations or abnormalities during DNA replication could be at play, which are not usually seen throughout a family's genetic history.

                                                                                        You're stuck on the "it's not in my family, so it couldn't be genetic" idea. That's not how genetics works. Spot mutations, additions, deletions, etc. in DNA occur. Genes that were previously of normal presentation in each other get combined in a child, and present differently because of the combination. You also say your son was "normal" then regressed. This happens a lot with many genetic conditions as well, so it doesn't follow that it couldn't be genetic either.

                                                                                        I understand you want to find out the reason(s) for your son's autism, but blaming "big bad companies" without understanding the probability that DNA could be at fault as well is doing a disservice to the researchers who've found many genetic markers for this disorder. We all want to find the reason and a solution, but the blame game has got to stop.

                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                        #16.1 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:32 AM EST
                                                                                        Mike Pescatore

                                                                                        Blame game? You are arrogant. Listen Jackass, these big bad companies experimented with my son's brain development so they could increase theirprofits. It's in black and white. Then they were warned about this after a critical evaluation of their garbage DHASCO and ARASCO. They can't prove a benefit, but they don't care. They have hundreds of reports of serious harm caused to infants. They say it just hasn't increased to a point for concern. So if its ok with you, I will get them to explain "triggering effects on cellular pathways" during neurodevelopment. I will get them to explain why they discontinued non DHASCO/ARASCO fomulas after being shown to provide relief for a population of infants. Maybe they won't harm all children or cause every child alterations in brain development or digestive issues. Unlike you, I find this disgusting and hopefully I will be able to do something about. At least I try. I don't dedicate my life to trashing other people's research or making false claims. I don't think making parents aware is providing a disservice.

                                                                                          #16.2 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:21 AM EST
                                                                                          penguin15

                                                                                          Blame game? You are arrogant. Listen Jackass, these big bad companies experimented with my son's brain development so they could increase theirprofits. It's in black and white.

                                                                                          Speaking of arrogance, look at the person who wants to blame everyone but himself without proof. Experimented? Hardly. You're showing your bias. Black and white? YOU HAVEN'T SHOWN PROOF THAT DHA CAUSES AUTISM. That's black and white. Meanwhile, you ignore the research that shows that autism is linked to genetic variants caused by DNA sequence additions, deletions, and repetitions during fetal development. Dismiss solid research in favor of your own unproven theories -- THAT is arrogance!!

                                                                                          They can't prove a benefit, but they don't care

                                                                                          Actually, there are PLENTY of studies that show it aids in eye and brain development. If there weren't, they wouldn't legally be allowed to advertise it right on the bottle. And you haven't proved there's a detriment. Which is why the FDA has turned you down numerous times.

                                                                                          They say it just hasn't increased to a point for concern.

                                                                                          That's a gross mischaracterization of what they said to you.

                                                                                          At least I try. I don't dedicate my life to trashing other people's research or making false claims. I don't think making parents aware is providing a disservice.

                                                                                          Sir, what you're doing amounts to a witch hunt. You THINK that something evil is occurring, so you spend all of your time researching chemicals and what they may or may not do so you can have someone else to blame.

                                                                                          I don't spend my time trashing other people's research. I actually work for a very prominent company in the healthcare arena (but not involved with DHA/ARA), so for you to paint me as a leech and think that I'm not doing my best to help children is completely unfair.

                                                                                          Here's the problem with what you're doing, and why you're actually providing parents a disservice: You have no true indication from a peer-reviewed study or an authoritative body as to whether what you're saying is true (namely, that autism is caused by DHA, et al). You're no better than those wackos who say that vaccines are responsible, and are spreading unconfirmed information to make people adopt your way of thinking (and hence resist the "dangerous" DHA, etc.).

                                                                                          Now if these chemicals did not provide any sort of benefit, that'd be one thing. But these chemicals aid in eye and brain development, and the more people that adopt your way of thinking, the more children that are going to have brain and eye developmental issues. That IS providing a disservice to parents. It's one thing to inform and raise the potential for something -- quite another to rail against the use of a helpful chemical because of a conspiracy in which you believe.

                                                                                          If I had to give you one piece of advice, it would be to conduct a study comparing autism incidence among parents who did and did not ingest the DHA, etc. supplements. Instead of just researching what 'could' be based upon chemical compositions, you'd then have statistical data to fall back on. You're no better than the Homefront people in Chicago, who turn a blind eye to data that could invalidate their position.

                                                                                          Again, just because you've researched how "evil" DHA, etc. may be, it DOES NOT therefore mean that autism results from its usage. You have no data to show causation here.

                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                          #16.3 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 3:03 PM EST
                                                                                          Mike Pescatore

                                                                                          "That's a gross mischaracterization of what they said to you."

                                                                                          Penguin, how do you know what they said to me?

                                                                                          How do you know what structurally altered DHASCO and ARASCO may or maynot do?

                                                                                          You don't know. Don't pretend you do. You may be able to fool others that lack knowledge, and probably do often, but you don't fool me. By analogy, I wouldn't tell a watchmaker that a specific part of a watch would not cause problems if not machined properly. I know nothing about watchmaking or the component tolerances. I wouldn't argue with someone if I didn't understand what they were talking about.

                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                          #16.4 - Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:20 PM EST
                                                                                          penguin15

                                                                                          How do you know what structurally altered DHASCO and ARASCO may or maynot do?

                                                                                          Exactly my point -- you can't tell me that these changes aren't positive, as studies have shown better brain and eye development with these chemicals.

                                                                                          You don't know. Don't pretend you do.

                                                                                          Exactly my point to you. You have Googled some papers. Don't pretend like you understand the cause of autism just by reading a few papers that you've carefully selected.

                                                                                            #16.5 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:49 AM EST
                                                                                            Mike Pescatore

                                                                                            "Exactly my point -- you can't tell me that these changes aren't positive, as studies have shown better brain and eye development with these chemicals."

                                                                                            Studies provided by the manufacturers have shown mixed results at best. Please post the studies you are referring to.

                                                                                            "Exactly my point to you. You have Googled some papers. Don't pretend like you understand the cause of autism just by reading a few papers that you've carefully selected."

                                                                                            I've read thousands of peer reviewed scientific publications. I got these publication online. These publications examine many things that have been found among autistic individuals.

                                                                                            How did I carefully select a few of them? Many of these publications and the science explored within them are recent discoveries. Should I not use google to find them?

                                                                                            I think I know where you are going with this. Since I don't have a lab to conduct experiments, I am not a researcher. I share info with someone who does have access to a lab and has discussed parts of my theory with his students. So your point is?

                                                                                            Where did I state that I know what causes every form of autism in every individual? I said that I believe that I have found something that may be contributing in some cases. Where did I say that autism doesn't have a genetic component?

                                                                                              #16.6 - Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:35 AM EST
                                                                                              penguin15

                                                                                              Studies provided by the manufacturers have shown mixed results at best. Please post the studies you are referring to.

                                                                                              Ironic that you request studies to show these results, yet you can't post a single study to show that autism results from infant formula. Hypocritical? Yup.

                                                                                              I've read thousands of peer reviewed scientific publications. I got these publication online. These publications examine many things that have been found among autistic individuals.

                                                                                              A) And yet none of these publications has indicted infant formula as a cause of autism...hmmm, makes you wonder. You can have a lot of things found amongst autistic individuals...it doesn't mean that these things made them autistic, though!

                                                                                              B) Read anything regarding genetics, or only those that confirmed your opinions? Thought so. Confirmation bias at its greatest level ever!

                                                                                              Should I not use google to find them?

                                                                                              If I Google "we never landed on the moon", I'll find thousands of publications "confirming" that as fact. But it doesn't mean it's true. You're Googling only things that confirm your thoughts. That's called confirmation bias. Reading up on only one train of thought does not mean you're well-versed in the topic...it's quite the opposite, being only myopic on the topic (hey, that rhymes!).

                                                                                              Since I don't have a lab to conduct experiments, I am not a researcher. I share info with someone who does have access to a lab and has discussed parts of my theory with his students. So your point is?

                                                                                              I have friends in labs too...it doesn't mean that whatever we discuss is true though. My point is you (or your lab friends) have never conducted a study to confirm your hypothesis, though you've claimed your "research" proves your case. So either you're using Google to confirm your beliefs (inherently wrong) or you've convinced yourself that your discussions are based on absolute truth (inherently wrong).

                                                                                              Where did I state that I know what causes every form of autism in every individual? I said that I believe that I have found something that may be contributing in some cases. Where did I say that autism doesn't have a genetic component?

                                                                                              In your lawsuits. You've claimed genetic cause was not possible for your son because you have no family history of ASD. As if that's the only way it could be genetic cause!

                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                              #16.7 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:21 PM EST
                                                                                              Reply
                                                                                              Mike Pescatore

                                                                                              I don't think any parent should feel guilty about vaccinating their child or formula feeding. I think some serious thought should be given to the scheduling of vaccinations as well as the components found in both. When manufacturers compromise safety to increase profit, we increase our odds of becoming harmed. As you can see, the burden of evidence causative of harm, especially for a disease like autism, shifts away from those manufacturers. Doesn't this potentially create "environmental factors" that may contribute to harm? It is very easy to say that this or that won't cause autism, or there are environmental factors out there that may contribute. It takes a great deal more to take action and question what we are calling safe these days.

                                                                                                Reply#17 - Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:22 AM EST
                                                                                                penguin15

                                                                                                Mike, you continue to call autism a "disease". Please stop. It's hurtful and untrue. It may be a neurological "condition" or "disorder", but is certainly not a "disease".

                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                #17.1 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:35 AM EST
                                                                                                Mike Pescatore

                                                                                                When has neurodegeneration been called anything other than a disease? Oh, I'm sorry. I will refer to my son's condition as a regressive encephalopathy. What's the difference?

                                                                                                  #17.2 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:25 AM EST
                                                                                                  penguin15

                                                                                                  When has neurodegeneration been called anything other than a disease? Oh, I'm sorry. I will refer to my son's condition as a regressive encephalopathy. What's the difference?

                                                                                                  Seriously, last you told us, your child has been diagnosed as being autistic. According to the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/mitochondrial-faq.html):

                                                                                                  Most children with an autism spectrum disorder do not and have not had an encephalopathy. Some children with an autism spectrum disorder have had regression and some have had a regressive encephalopathy.

                                                                                                  So, either:

                                                                                                  Your child is autistic, and is not "diseased" but instead has a neurological disorder; OR

                                                                                                  Your child has a mitochondrial condition (guess who you inherit your mitochondria from? Your mother -- directly. No changes in mitochondrial DNA unless there was a problem during replication, which either way points to a genetic root cause).

                                                                                                  As you have always termed your son autistic, I see no reason to now call it encephalopathy.

                                                                                                  A key phrase here is the following: "The disease was there all the time, but something happens that “sets it off”." Hinting at a genetic root cause, not environmental. Environment could trigger it, with the root cause being genetic.

                                                                                                  Autism: disorder (not disease)

                                                                                                  Encephalopathy: disorder or disease (genetic cause)

                                                                                                  Take your pick, but you can't pick and choose what features from each you'd like him to have. It's sad to think of your son as "diseased" when he may not be. Sad indeed. Like you think he's subhuman. Again, if you've had a diagnosis of a disease, I apologize. But autism is NOT a disease, nor is it the same as encephalopathy. End of story.

                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                  #17.3 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 3:21 PM EST
                                                                                                  Mike Pescatore

                                                                                                  Penguin, what are the diferrences between autism and regressive encephalopathy? Is there overlap in symptoms? Could one be mistaken and diagnosed as the other? Do we just use terminology in order to get paid by vaccination court?

                                                                                                    #17.4 - Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:55 PM EST
                                                                                                    penguin15

                                                                                                    Could one be mistaken and diagnosed as the other?

                                                                                                    Yes they could, in fact it's documented that it occurs. Autism is a brain dysfunction, but not all brain dysfunctions (or brain damage as in encephalopathy) is autism. Poling & Banks have encephalopathy, NOT autism.

                                                                                                    To call your child "diseased" is terrible. It ain't the measles or even AIDS. It's a neurological condition. Do you call Down syndrome a disease? No. It pains me to think you believe your child is diseased.

                                                                                                      #17.5 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:58 AM EST
                                                                                                      Robert-1126350

                                                                                                      Autism is a brain dysfunction, but not all brain dysfunctions (or brain damage as in encephalopathy) is autism. Poling & Banks have encephalopathy, NOT autism.

                                                                                                      Again you've said nothing. And no one has said "all brain dysfunction is autism". Autism is a set of symptoms. Poling and Banks were permanently brain injured directly by CDC recommended and state mandated vaccines. They are not the only cases whose delicate little developing brains were redirected by government medical policy guidelines written by robber barrons and ideologists. Ideologists who think they can kill every virus and bacteria in the world. And that cause is noble enough to kill or maim someones child over. Vaccination and medical drugging should be a choice and the government shouldn't be involved in it.

                                                                                                      To call your child "diseased" is terrible

                                                                                                      Stop waving your hand and playing games. If someone develops autism from a viral infection is that they way they were supposed to be? Is that the way God intended them to be.

                                                                                                      BTW Measles is a disease of moderate/mild severity and almost always self limiting. How long does autism and vaccine damage last?

                                                                                                        #17.6 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:16 PM EST
                                                                                                        penguin15

                                                                                                        Autism is a set of symptoms

                                                                                                        ...that arises from neurological impairments. It's not just a collection of symptoms and voila you get autism.

                                                                                                        BTW Measles is a disease of moderate/mild severity and almost always self limiting. How long does autism and vaccine damage last?

                                                                                                        You can't "catch" autism, and the supposed link between vaccines and autism has (for the last time) been DISPROVEN.

                                                                                                        Poling and Banks were permanently brain injured

                                                                                                        Ah, so you finally admit they're not actually autistic! Now we agree on something!

                                                                                                        Unfortunately for you, measles and other preventable diseases DO kill people, many more than vaccines. What if AIDS had a vaccine...would you still be anti-vaccine? Or would you realize that many more people are saved by that vaccine than would be harmed?

                                                                                                        Autism is still not a disease, no matter how many times you try to discredit me. Nice try at ad hominem attacks, though.

                                                                                                          #17.7 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:48 PM EST
                                                                                                          Mike Pescatore

                                                                                                          Penguin, if autism was caused by chronic neuroinflammation and oxidative damage, it would be classified as a disease. Is Alzheimer's and Parkinson's considered diseases? Are brains from individuals suffering from these conditions normal at one point in time and then become diseased and degenerate?

                                                                                                          How do you disassociate brain damage from autism? You know that autism isn't a result of brain damage? Make some sense. Oh, that's right, vaccination induced brain damage just results in brain damage and not autism. Despite the fact that some whom are injured by vaccinations display autistic-like symptoms and are diagnosed as autistic. It's difficult to sound honest when using such word games.

                                                                                                          Oh,BTW, Karen Desoto wasn't my attorney. I was pro-se. But feel free to contimnue making things up to support your argument.

                                                                                                            #17.8 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:01 PM EST
                                                                                                            penguin15

                                                                                                            Penguin, if autism was caused by chronic neuroinflammation and oxidative damage, it would be classified as a disease.

                                                                                                            Too bad it's not. You THINK it is, but there's no conclusive data to support this. Too bad for you that the DSM classifies it as a disorder. Your opinion that it's a disease is countered by the actual manual in which the definition is contained.

                                                                                                            Is Alzheimer's and Parkinson's considered diseases?

                                                                                                            Yes, because these are degenerative brain conditions that develop over time. It has been shown that the physiological symptoms of autism are there before birth. Would a congenital heart valve defect be considered a "disease" by you? How about congenital bone dislocations? Is everything that is not 100% perfect with a human being a "disease" to you?

                                                                                                            How do you disassociate brain damage from autism?

                                                                                                            How can you not? Squares are all rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

                                                                                                            Oh,BTW, Karen Desoto wasn't my attorney. I was pro-se. But feel free to contimnue making things up to support your argument.

                                                                                                            So a lawyer just happened to write an op-ed piece on you with you not seeking her out? Right. I'm sure she took time out of her busy schedule to take her personal time to seek you out.

                                                                                                            Oh, that's right, vaccination induced brain damage just results in brain damage and not autism. Despite the fact that some whom are injured by vaccinations display autistic-like symptoms and are diagnosed as autistic.

                                                                                                            Would you say that a car accident victim displaying repetitive behaviors (i.e. a symptom of autism) is therefore autistic? NOPE. So you can display symptoms of autism WITHOUT BEING AUTISTIC. The court and doctors did not say Poling/Banks were autistic...they said they displayed some symptoms of autism. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. You know, a rhombus exhibits some symptoms of a square (4 equidistant sides, closed polygon, etc) but is not actually a square. Sorry to go all geometry on you. But it's really quite simple. If they were really just autistic, why did they take the time to craft the language of "autistic-like symptoms" and not say "she has autism" or "she is autistic". Because it then wouldn't be a true statement.

                                                                                                            You've got to wonder about your reading comprehension! Much like you trying to read in between the lines of your court judgments, when they actually said "come back here one more time like this with no evidence and you're done permanently", which you took to mean "I believe your theory". Wow, just wow.

                                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                                            #17.9 - Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:25 PM EST
                                                                                                            Mike Pescatore

                                                                                                            So you have determined that autism isn't caused by chronic neuro-inflammation and oxidative damage? I guess every researcher that has shown how this may be implicated is wrong.

                                                                                                            You're actually going to debate whether Karen was my attorney or not. Seriously?

                                                                                                            "Yes, because these are degenerative brain conditions that develop over time. It has been shown that the physiological symptoms of autism are there before birth."

                                                                                                            I believe some autistic individuals develope normally and then regress over time. I saw it happen to my son. Are you claiming that regressive autism isn't a degenerative condition? These individuals always had autism but only showed symptoms @ 18 months? What kind of nonsense are you trying to sell now?

                                                                                                            Penguin, Hannah Poling is autistic. It's documented in the Journal of pediatric neurology. Jon Poling stated she was autistic on several national news stations. She was diagnosed as autistic. You hate the fact that vaccination injury was conceeded as the cause, but it doesn't change the facts.

                                                                                                            If you display autistic-like behavior, more than likely you would be diagnosed as autistic. In the real world anyway.

                                                                                                              #17.10 - Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:05 PM EST
                                                                                                              penguin15

                                                                                                              So you have determined that autism isn't caused by chronic neuro-inflammation and oxidative damage? I guess every researcher that has shown how this may be implicated is wrong.

                                                                                                              No one knows the reason for autism, Mike, not even you. You haven't shown that it IS caused by this, so I don't know how you can say this.

                                                                                                              You're actually going to debate whether Karen was my attorney or not. Seriously?

                                                                                                              Not debating it, but what I am wondering is why a lawyer chooses to write an article about this one random guy's "research" (read: online Googling of other people's papers). Whether she was your friend, lawyer, acquaintance, what have you, you convinced her to write this article. She didn't pick your story out of the blue. Add to it that you've done no research at all, and it isn't much of a story after all. How did this lawyer find your story, other than you going to her to spout your nonsensical theory?

                                                                                                              I believe some autistic individuals develope normally and then regress over time. I saw it happen to my son. Are you claiming that regressive autism isn't a degenerative condition? These individuals always had autism but only showed symptoms @ 18 months? What kind of nonsense are you trying to sell now?

                                                                                                              You've claimed that regression spontaneously occurred. What I'm claiming is that you cannot prove that it wasn't there all along. You've yet to prove how it could magically appear all-the-sudden. If there are genetic causes, then they would've been there from birth...it's not as if all-the-sudden every molecule of DNA changed in the exact same place. Why is it that it happened all the sudden in your child's case? You've yet to show that, and that's why the judge rejected you. Your "expert" was unable to talk to this, hence the dismissal of your case. If you can't get one guy, who's being brought in to appear on your behalf, to talk to your case, that's really not a helpful expert, is it?

                                                                                                              Penguin, Hannah Poling is autistic. It's documented in the Journal of pediatric neurology.

                                                                                                              Lest we forget that the Journal of Pediatric Neurology retracted this documentation. Did you forget that important detail?

                                                                                                              Jon Poling stated she was autistic on several national news stations.

                                                                                                              Oh, so her father can diagnose her now? Every opinion on national news now is a fact?

                                                                                                              She was diagnosed as autistic

                                                                                                              Nope. Read the court documents. "Brain damage presenting symptoms of autism" is NOT "is autistic". Sorry. Again, go to the car accident case. You have to present six symptoms in three categories to be labeled ASD. Poling demonstrated some, but not all, so doesn't fit the definition. Sorry.

                                                                                                              You hate the fact that vaccination injury was conceeded as the cause, but it doesn't change the facts.

                                                                                                              Vaccine injury caused brain damage. That I concede (proper spelling). But that brain damage does not equal autism. No doctor trained in psychology would sign off on that. Terri Schiavo had some symptoms of autism...does that mean she was autistic too? OMG!

                                                                                                              If you display autistic-like behavior, more than likely you would be diagnosed as autistic. In the real world anyway.

                                                                                                              Sorry, but the DSM makes crystal clear what the definition of autism spectrum disorder is. Anything short of that is not autism. Period. Brain injury? No doubt. But autism? Nope. Continue to invent your "facts" on the fly, though...seems to be working in your mind. NO "real world" doctor would sign off on a diagnosis of autism if they didn't fit the definition.

                                                                                                              These individuals always had autism but only showed symptoms @ 18 months? What kind of nonsense are you trying to sell now?

                                                                                                              Have you read any of the research that shows the symptoms of autism appear in the womb? No, because it doesn't fit your "happens after birth" theory, so you discard it. Confirmation bias.

                                                                                                                #17.11 - Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:51 PM EST
                                                                                                                Mike Pescatore

                                                                                                                "Have you read any of the research that shows the symptoms of autism appear in the womb? No, because it doesn't fit your "happens after birth" theory, so you discard it. Confirmation bias."

                                                                                                                Oh they detect symptoms of autism in the womb now? What symptoms? Repetitive movements, loss of eye contact, unaware of their surroundings, ????? What a joke. Do they detect loss of acquired speech in the womb as well?

                                                                                                                "Vaccine injury caused brain damage. That I concede (proper spelling). But that brain damage does not equal autism."

                                                                                                                How do you know that? So no child has ever become brain damaged, then displayed the symptoms of autism and was later diagnosed with autism? This has never happened? I read that it has in thousands of children. These people probably don't really have autistic children and their neurologist probably misdiagnosed their children. Whatever you say Penguin. Go smoke another one.

                                                                                                                  #17.12 - Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:04 PM EST
                                                                                                                  penguin15

                                                                                                                  Oh they detect symptoms of autism in the womb now? What symptoms? Repetitive movements, loss of eye contact, unaware of their surroundings, ????? What a joke. Do they detect loss of acquired speech in the womb as well?

                                                                                                                  As I suspected, you hadn't read the research. Tsk, tsk.

                                                                                                                  http://sentinelsource.com/life_and_style/health_fitness/study-suggests-autism-starts-during-fetal-development/article_e5a4d6a4-5034-51e5-820b-8acaaed91dcb.html

                                                                                                                  Children with autism have many more brain cells than typically developing children, researchers have found, supporting previous research that suggests that autism may be caused by something going awry before a baby is born as opposed to something triggering autism in a toddler.

                                                                                                                  They specifically looked at the part of the brain called the prefrontal cortex because it’s the part that’s responsible for social, emotional, communication and language development. Having too many neurons or nerve cells in the part of the brain that controls the very features that children with autism struggle with may explain the origin of autism, the study suggests.

                                                                                                                  So it's apparent you only look for publications that could potentially support your ideas. Confirmation bias.

                                                                                                                  How do you know that? So no child has ever become brain damaged, then displayed the symptoms of autism and was later diagnosed with autism?

                                                                                                                  Displayed SOME symptoms of autism -- surely...but been diagnosed as autistic? That's the whole crux of the Poling case! She displayed symptoms, but not enough to be diagnosed as autistic, because it's brain damage, not a neurological disorder.

                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                  #17.13 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:31 PM EST
                                                                                                                  MarkD-555

                                                                                                                  Oh they detect symptoms of autism in the womb now? What symptoms?

                                                                                                                  Autistic children have minor distinct facial features they are born with - before they even develop autism.

                                                                                                                  While this particular method hasn't been used "in the womb" yet that I know of, (although it could be) they are developing ways to detect Autism before the mental symptoms surface.

                                                                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                                                                  #17.14 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:52 PM EST
                                                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                                                  Gina-2641124

                                                                                                                  Mike -- I am TOTALLY against any sort of "experiments" when it comes to kids ...and I am sorry if it came across otherwise. I misspoke when I said where to draw the line .. you do whatever you can to find the answers you need when it comes to your kids. As a parent, (and as a teacher) I hear things everyday that may or may not harm my child. That's what I meant as to where do we draw the line. There seems to be new information everyday that is another trigger for autism and its scary. And all the information contradicts each other. I am sure we can agree its an emotional and tricky subject and that is why I usually do not comment on it.

                                                                                                                    Reply#18 - Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:31 PM EST
                                                                                                                    Mike Pescatore

                                                                                                                    Gina, it is an emotional and tricky subject. I am focussed on a specific area of causation. In no way do I think that I will find the specific cause of every child's ASD. If I can find one factor that may play a role, no matter how small that role may be, I feel it is worthwhile. Thank you for taking the time to comment. It is very important to have discussions on autism and question what we truly know.

                                                                                                                      Reply#19 - Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:36 PM EST
                                                                                                                      Valerie W. McClain

                                                                                                                      Wonderful article!! Mike, you are awesome in your knowledge of these issues and your perseverance to get answers.

                                                                                                                      I hope you don't mind a few comments. I see the gender issue raised by others as irrelevant. Many diseases impact women and men at different rates. For example heart disease, women are relatively protected from heart disease prior to menopause but after menopause have higher rates than men. Pharmacology takes into consideration that woman and men react differently to the same drugs. Women usually weigh less, and have more fat cells. We are quite simply physically different. Women who have heart attacks present different symptoms than men. This has meant that often women do not get the rapid response that is needed in the ER. There is also the belief that males are more biologically fragile than females. In general, women live longer than men.

                                                                                                                      Mercury contamination in the environment is a growing problem, particularly in our air and waterways. It is a known fact that algae is a heavy metal scavenger. The algae that is put into infant formula is no longer alive, chemically dead. Throughout its life it has collected mercury, lead, etc. It is processed using various chemicals sodium hydroxide (caustic lye), hexane and acetone. Why would we believe that this is healthful for infants?

                                                                                                                        Reply#20 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:25 AM EST
                                                                                                                        Mike Pescatore

                                                                                                                        Thanks so much Valerie! There is absolute proofthat gender plays a role in various diseases. Usually the how's and why's are less understood. We can see that DHA supplementation has been shown to affect gender differently. Again, don't shoot the messenger. I did not conduct the study that I posted, rather just relaying the results that were found.

                                                                                                                        The algae used for DHASCO production raises several issues as it is forced to produce this fatty acid through fermentation. I looked at CDK5 a while back, and won't get into the details. Let's just say red tide, from algal blooms, are created from uncontrolled algal growth and known to cause neurotoxic effects. The manufacturers state that the algae used is not related to this species or genus of this domoic acid producing strain found to create harmful algal blooms. I wonder what happens to the strain they use when forcing fermentation to its limits. Of note, cyanuric acid has recently been found in infant formulas. Isn't that used to stabilize algae growth in pools?

                                                                                                                        On the algae topic, carrageenan is used as an emulsifier and thickener. It has been shown to be carcinogenic when it degrades to poligeenan. We are unsure how carrageenan degrades in the immature digestive system, or what that may cause. Acute models of inflammation areinitiated by injecting carrageenan. I guess it is inexpensive and they are allowed to use it. I am told that it is widely used in many different foods, therefore it is of little concern.

                                                                                                                        Yes, the questions keep coming. My question is why it is in infant formula if we have yet to clearly prove a benefit.

                                                                                                                        Nice to hear from you Valerie! I will keep up the search for answers.I hope all is well.

                                                                                                                          Reply#21 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:05 AM EST
                                                                                                                          Robert-1126350

                                                                                                                          That's an interesting correlation that you found with Dr. Poling. Coincidence?

                                                                                                                            Reply#22 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:39 PM EST
                                                                                                                            Mike Pescatore

                                                                                                                            Robert, honestly, what are the odds? I been sharing info with a well known autism expert. He is a brilliant professor. He is very interested in what I have given him. It doesn't matter what I say or what I give for support, the Penguin isn't having it. Why would anyone repetively trash someone else's idea that may help keep children from harm? Its not like he has something positive to add. I just don't understand why he doesn't want anyone to find an environmental factor that may contribute to this disease.

                                                                                                                            Penguin, there are environmental, exogenous factors out there that are contributing. Just about every autism expert out there recognizes this fact. At least the ones I have come across. Don't tell people autism is soley a genetic abnormality. It simply isn't true. There is no doubt genetics play a role in causation. There are also environmental factors that may trigger these abnormalities to manifest as autism. Try and add some constructive critisism, we are all on the same team.

                                                                                                                              Reply#23 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:55 PM EST
                                                                                                                              Robert-1126350

                                                                                                                              Just curious. Have you read this textbook? I have the first addition. You've caused me to break it back out.

                                                                                                                              http://www.mariuspress.com/books.htm

                                                                                                                              Phospholipid Spectrum Disorders in Psychiatry and Neurology
                                                                                                                              Second Edition
                                                                                                                              Edited by Malcolm Peet, Iain Glen and David Horrobi

                                                                                                                                #23.1 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:38 PM EST
                                                                                                                                penguin15

                                                                                                                                Penguin, there are environmental, exogenous factors out there that are contributing. Just about every autism expert out there recognizes this fact. At least the ones I have come across. Don't tell people autism is soley a genetic abnormality. It simply isn't true. There is no doubt genetics play a role in causation. There are also environmental factors that may trigger these abnormalities to manifest as autism.

                                                                                                                                Okay, Mike...here we go again, one more time. I'm not saying it's solely genetics. What I'm saying is that it has a genetic root cause...two mutually exclusive ideas. While autism experts may agree that environmental factors may contribute, without the genetic factors, the environmental factors don't induce autism, hence the 99% of us that are not autistic. When the genetic factors are there, autism MAY be induced, given the right environmental (or genetic, as in things like puberty) triggers. This means that while the triggers may be present and contribute, the genetics is the root cause.

                                                                                                                                Now you have "no doubt" genetics plays a role in causation, but why before did you completely dismiss this notion?

                                                                                                                                Again, I think we're looking at environmental triggers, but only if the genetic factors are there to start with.

                                                                                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                #23.2 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:58 AM EST
                                                                                                                                Mike Pescatore

                                                                                                                                Again, DNA may be damaged from exogenous factors. Meaning that your DNA was fine and an environmental factor damaged it. Your argument is ridiculous. Are you telling me that gene expression cannot be altered unless it was predisposed to do so? I have stated from day one that some phenotypes of autism are from a genetic predisposition. Much like the APOE4 in Alzheimer's. This accounts for a small percentage of succeptability. Believe it or not, there are things that cause disease.

                                                                                                                                  #23.3 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:42 AM EST
                                                                                                                                  penguin15

                                                                                                                                  This accounts for a small percentage of succeptability

                                                                                                                                  Mike, you have NO data to support the notion that only a small portion of autism is related to genetics. None.

                                                                                                                                  Again, DNA may be damaged from exogenous factors. Meaning that your DNA was fine and an environmental factor damaged it.

                                                                                                                                  Yes, you may get cancer in portions of your body from sun damage, smoking, etc...but that does NOT mean that your DNA in every cell is altered, nor does it mean that you pass that damaged DNA on to your child. That's like suggesting that when you lop off a Rottweiler's tail, the puppy has no tail too.

                                                                                                                                  Now, if DHA, etc. is given to a mother during pregnancy or an infant, to have your theory work, you'd have to have EVERY cell have the SAME genetic alteration. What are the odds that every single cell would be altered in the exact same way? Slim to none. Certainly not anywhere close to 1 in 100.

                                                                                                                                  DNA expression may be altered by exogenous factors, but in order to have this present as autism, specific gene variants must be available. If these chemicals were the singular cause, many more than just 1 in 100 children would be autistic. What you have are the "autistic" gene variants potentially being expressed by exogenous factors...meaning the root cause is still genetic. Without the genes, the environment doesn't create a child who's autistic. Genetic root cause. You've proved my point. Thanks!

                                                                                                                                  Believe it or not, there are things that cause disease.

                                                                                                                                  Yes there are. But too bad autism's not a disease.

                                                                                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                  #23.4 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 3:37 PM EST
                                                                                                                                  Reply
                                                                                                                                  Mike Pescatore

                                                                                                                                  Robert I haven't read that yet. Thank you, I will. I'm sure it is shorter than the comments made by Penguin. We have DNA so DNA causes DNA to cause disease. Really?

                                                                                                                                    Reply#24 - Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:48 PM EST
                                                                                                                                    penguin15

                                                                                                                                    Mike, please stop mischaracterizing my position. You ruled out DNA as a cause, and have focused on environmental factors. I just asked why, especially in light of all of the genetic factors found that are more common in autistic children than in "normal" children.

                                                                                                                                    You still haven't explained why these "exogenous environmental chemicals" cause autism in only some, but not others. What I'm asking is why is it so hard for you to believe that there are genetic factors at play in inducing autism in these individuals?

                                                                                                                                    We've found genetic markers and linkages. That's irrefutable. You don't have to inherit these traits for autism to be genetic (e.g. deletions, additions, repetitions in DNA). Unfortunately, you want to blame anyone else for your son's condition, fearful that it could be your own DNA that could've been the root cause.

                                                                                                                                    I didn't say that DNA was alone responsible...I said that when triggers influence DNA anomalies, the DNA is the root cause (which is true, as without the DNA, there is no condition, hence it being the root cause). Are there cases in which it may be environmental alone? Possibly, but the appearance of autistic symptoms at the same age in each case points otherwise...you would expect to see a wide variety of ages "get" autism if it were environmental, which doesn't happen.

                                                                                                                                    Everyone's so obsessed with the idea that the incidence rate has increased dramatically with autism...what if the definition change and better awareness of the disorder were the cause for the supposed "increase"?

                                                                                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                    #24.1 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:48 AM EST
                                                                                                                                    Mike Pescatore

                                                                                                                                    I guess without DNA we would not exist and I would not have to argue with you over infant formula supplements being dangerous. Again, we get your point. Autism is a genetic disease and without DNA we can not exist to inherit disease. I wish you told me this years ago. I could have saved myself alot of time. I guess if you held your breath long enough, your DNA would cause you to suffocate. You should try it and let me know how that works out for you.

                                                                                                                                      #24.2 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:53 AM EST
                                                                                                                                      Robert-1126350

                                                                                                                                      Under the DNA is the root cause of all disease pleading, do you believe that there is a disease that is not caused by DNA as a root cause?

                                                                                                                                        #24.3 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:20 PM EST
                                                                                                                                        penguin15

                                                                                                                                        You're misstating my arguments. Yes, there are diseases caused by environmental factors. YOU are the ones excluding genetic possibilities, even though myriad evidence exists that genetic factors are at play.

                                                                                                                                        First and foremost: Autism runs in families.

                                                                                                                                        Second: 4:1 ratio of boys to girls in autism prevalence.

                                                                                                                                        Those alone should tell you that there's a genetic cause here. The myriad research showing genes associated with autism should also tell you that genetics are at play here.

                                                                                                                                        Yet you continue to dismiss this notion -- WHY? You're so biased that you're blinding yourself to real possibilities. Sad.

                                                                                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                        #24.4 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 3:42 PM EST
                                                                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                                                                        Robert-1126350

                                                                                                                                        But what if he had some DNA anomaly during his development in the womb?

                                                                                                                                        Remember your 5 why's that your professor taught you? Why is there a genetic anomaly during development. Why is this genetic anomaly increasing? If you don't believe it is then why all the hoopla? What activates a gene?

                                                                                                                                        Penguin, do you believe smoking can cause lung cancer or is lung cancer genetic and one will either get it or they won't?

                                                                                                                                          Reply#25 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:14 AM EST
                                                                                                                                          penguin15

                                                                                                                                          Way to completely mischaracterize a position. Your parents should be proud they raised such a weasel.

                                                                                                                                          Genetic anomalies (additions, deletions, repetitions) can happen during ANY cell replication cycle, as well as in meiosis. To conclude that because both parents' phenotypes are "normal" that the son/daughter will also be "normal" is your bias. How many "normal" parents of autistic/MS/CF/childhood cancer/Down children are there? Lots.

                                                                                                                                          Just because the parents' DNA is "normal" doesn't mean that some anomaly didn't occur during gamete production (meiosis) or during zygote/fetal development (mitosis).

                                                                                                                                          That's the point I'm trying to make -- it can be a genetic problem even if the parents didn't have the specific genes. It's the combination/rearrangement of genes during development that create the genotype (and ultimately the phenotype) of the child. Two brown-eyed parents can make a blue-eyed baby due to genetic combinations. Same concept. Your child's traits don't all come from one parent or the other. Otherwise natural selection and evolution would never occur.

                                                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                                                          #25.1 - Mon Dec 6, 2010 3:50 PM EST
                                                                                                                                          Reply
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